[UPDATE #115] Rocker shoes or barefoot for a low-heeled negative palmar angle horse?

[ohmissbrittany]

THIRD TRIM with some progress!- I’ve gotten better at taking “foot assessment” photos as well :winkgrin:

http://imgur.com/a/LLBGG - Here are the pictures after two trims. Much improved and she even trotted sound yesterday!

I have a horse who’s a bit high-low-heel, who I’ve been struggling with over a year to keep the palmar angle at least flat- we’ve been doing pads and equipak successfully for a year with aggressive toe trims, but it’s flared back up and she’s lame again. I took her for an MRI and it’s all mild collateral desmitis, which is a relief. They probably think I’m crazy because she’s barely limping, but I’d rather go nuclear fix on a minor problem now, before it becomes something like navicular that isn’t fixable.

The angle itself on the low “problem foot” is staying pretty flat (it’s back to where it was and in theory she should be sound but isn’t this time), but my farrier and I can’t for the life of me get her heel to grow down rather than shoot straight forward.

My vet suggested some new-age version of a rocker shoe that is flat where the hoof meets the shoe, so no weird trimming, but convex on the side that meets the ground. Like a shallow " D " turned over rather than a " U " if that makes more sense. I’m very leery of overly complex mechanical solutions, and really care more about fixing the root of the problem (needs more heel) rather than just shoeing the symptoms. I’m in it for long term soundness, not just next show season.

I’ve also read good things about barefoot, but feel it’s not for every horse, and may not actually help with the heel problem, as most of my barefoot horses in the past have been pretty flat-footed too. I’m leaning towards just leaving the shoes off for 6 mos or so to see if that helps- I’m more of a “less is more” type of person… I don’t want to piss off my vet/farrier, but what we are doing currently isn’t helping.

Anyone have advice, anecdotal evidence from your own experience?

EDIT TO UPDATE: here are radiograph, mri and photo images. The feet look worse than normal because she was getting the MRI right as she was due for new shoes, then we opted to just leave it for a week while we waited for the rocker-type shoes to come in. You can really see the distortion in the foot, but it looks like all her new growth “wants” to grow correctly. Any further advice is appreciated, and I am beginning to think heel trimming may be the missing piece of the puzzle!

http://imgur.com/a/vFMAY

[One_Two_Three]

I’m currently suffering with similar issues with my OTTB. He hasn’t been xrayed to know for sure, but the farrier was comfortable in saying that right now he’s got a negative palmar angle, and his heels just go forward forward forward instead of down as they should.

In my horse’s case, this was due to his years on the race track, in race plates. They like long toe and no heel.

I had to fire my farrier and find someone new, who understood the heel issue. It’s a slow process but we’re going to get there, someday…

He recommended staying barefoot, saying that often with shoes it contracts the heels and really doesn’t do any bit of good. It might not hurt to get another farrier on board, for a second opinion. I also recommend that you take some photos and post here–there are many people well versed in feet that can give you some insight here, but they’re going to need photos so they can really see what’s going on.

Best of luck! I’ll be peeking in on this thread in curiosity in case something relevant comes through that might help my guy on his journey. His heels have started to come back under him, but he’s got a long way to go. It’s very frustrating. Adding long pasterns to the mix does NOT help, as in my guy’s case.

[bathsheba8542]

Going through something similar. I searched for and found an expert and am working through this now. You might want to look for recommendations for an equine podiatrist in your area. The person I am using is a highly respected, extensively published vet/farrier who has been solving these problems for some 40 years. His advice has been incredible.

[ohmissbrittany]

[QUOTE=bathsheba8542;8317532]
Going through something similar. I searched for and found an expert and am working through this now. You might want to look for recommendations for an equine podiatrist in your area. The person I am using is a highly respected, extensively published vet/farrier who has been solving these problems for some 40 years. His advice has been incredible.[/QUOTE]

I’ve got the guy that was Texas A&M’s farrier for 20 years on the case, but he’s not too optimistic. He says if there isn’t enough digital cushion, the heel may never be stable, and I’m looking at “serviceably sound but probably declining”… Also sending data to the podiatrist from NANRIC for a third opinion, haha. I’m hoping it’s a bit more positive.

[JB]

I don’t understand what that shoe will do to raise the angle

What about the foot is keeping the farrier from bringing the toes and heels back?

Has any wedging been mentioned to put the angle where it belongs?

[ohmissbrittany]

[QUOTE=JB;8317872]
I don’t understand what that shoe will do to raise the angle

What about the foot is keeping the farrier from bringing the toes and heels back?

Has any wedging been mentioned to put the angle where it belongs?[/QUOTE]

Wedges over time will actually crush the heel- so it will solve my angle problem, but not the root cause.

A rocker shoe is something that will allow her to position her leg in the angle that is most comfortable for her and provide a better healing environment. This link is not light reading, but if you skim it you’ll see what I mean about “self adjusting” the palmar angle. The rocker shoe puts the axis in the toe, so in theory does not increase the pressure on the heel like the wedge pads would. I want to release as much pressure from the heel as I can to encourage it to grow DOWN rather than FORWARD.

We have been aggressively trimming the toe, to the point where she gets pretty sore for a few days, and that helped a lot. But with the flat pads and equipak, I was robbing peter to pay paul, and the pressure on the frog is likely bruising and producing the lameness. She has mild desmitis of the collateral ligament, per the MRI, which was not present last year.

[sassy45]

[QUOTE=ohmissbrittany;8318399]
I want to release as much pressure from the heel as I can to encourage it to grow DOWN rather than FORWARD.

If the heels are running forward you’v got underrun heels that need to be brought back. Taking the pressure of the heels wont fix under run heels they will continue to run forward,until they are taken back to where they belong at widest part of frog.

[JB]

[QUOTE=ohmissbrittany;8318399]
Wedges over time will actually crush the heel- so it will solve my angle problem, but not the root cause. [/QUOTE]
Wedges will correct the angle immediately, while the trim is fixed in order to then reduce and remove the wedge over time.

A rocker shoe is something that will allow her to position her leg in the angle that is most comfortable for her and provide a better healing environment. This link is not light reading, but if you skim it you’ll see what I mean about “self adjusting” the palmar angle. The rocker shoe puts the axis in the toe, so in theory does not increase the pressure on the heel like the wedge pads would. I want to release as much pressure from the heel as I can to encourage it to grow DOWN rather than FORWARD.

Yes, I understand what this type of shoe does But on the landing phase of a stride, the foot still lands heel-low, which this type of shoe does not prevent. What prevents that is proper trimming, with maybe the addition of a wedge while the foot is growing in more correctly

We have been aggressively trimming the toe, to the point where she gets pretty sore for a few days, and that helped a lot. But with the flat pads and equipak, I was robbing peter to pay paul, and the pressure on the frog is likely bruising and producing the lameness. She has mild desmitis of the collateral ligament, per the MRI, which was not present last year.

Trimming the toe should not make her sore, especially not each time. That’s where a wedge pad/shoe can help - take some pressure off a frog that might not be able to take full weight, while the continued correct trimming and movement helps increase the health of the frog and digital cushion as much as it can.

There are ways to pad a foot without padding/increasing pressure on the frog.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

[QUOTE=sassy45;8318422]

If the heels are running forward you’v got underrun heels that need to be brought back. Taking the pressure of the heels wont fix under run heels they will continue to run forward,until they are taken back to where they belong at widest part of frog.[/QUOTE]

This… Is he trimming the heels at all? They are there and if they are run forward/crushed… they are too long and need to be trimmed. The new growth will follow the old.

The foot in this article is pretty drastic, but the information applies. He explains very well how to bring the heels back and get the pressure off of them so they can grow in the right direction.
http://practicalhorsemanmag.com/article/underrun-heels

[BoyleHeightsKid]

[QUOTE=ohmissbrittany;8318399]

We have been aggressively trimming the toe, to the point where she gets pretty sore for a few days, and that helped a lot. But with the flat pads and equipak, I was robbing peter to pay paul, and the pressure on the frog is likely bruising and producing the lameness. She has mild desmitis of the collateral ligament, per the MRI, which was not present last year.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t think it’s the pressure on the frog that’s causing the bruising. I would be more willing the bet it’s from the heels being too long and folding under. Vance explains in the article above how “floating” the heels will help get the pressure off of them to allow the hoof capsule to open up and unfold. If he’s not trimming the heels, there is a major part of the problem.

[imissvixen]

This is what we have been using on my mare for the past three months for her low heels.

http://www.grandcircuitinc.com/products/grand-circuit-open-roller-speed

It has a very nice profile – not too much rocker – and gives her a little wedge up. I have found with her sensitive chestnut TB mare feet that she does not tolerate a wedge pad very well. They seem to be helping.

[suzyq]

We tried rockers and although they did not help the heels to grow, they did help thicken the sole so the toe could be brought back more. We are now successfully using heart bar pads with a little bit of wedge under his shoes to get the proper angle.

ETA I am in south Houston and our ground has so much clay I can’t imagine my horse going barefoot when it’s dry.

[meaty_ogre]

My APHA gelding is currently in Morrison rollers up front. He was bare behind, but I did just recently add regular aluminums.

He was both negative plantar and palmar (negative angles front and hind). The Morrison shoes have helped him grow heel up front. I’m working with a very good vet and we did x-rays to start. Everything was out of alignment (broken pastern angles, long toe, low heels) and the Morrison shoes, along with a proper trim guided by the x-rays, did significantly fix the issues almost immediately.

The horse is not the best mover to start, but fixing his angles did not improve his movement or make him more sound initially. I expected it would take time given the significant change. Because of his long toe and low heel, the previous farrier wanted to keep backing his toe up, which I also thought was the right move, but it made him very choppy and short strided up front. He now has a longer toe than I would think he needs, but he’s moving significantly better. I know that isn’t really relevant to what you asked, but I just thought it was interesting. Since using the Morrison rollers, he has grown enough heel to balance that length of toe so apparently it’s working for him.

One thing I do not like is that they offer very little traction, so I have to be careful about footing when riding. I do want to transition him to a standard shoe with a little more grab.

The farrier decided to leave him barefoot behind despite the negative angles and address those via trimming. He’s much weaker at the canter in one direction, and much stiffer in one direction in general. He also has some hock issues. At any rate, I insisted on shoes last week and have seen a big improvement there. So while I think that angles can be corrected by leaving a horse barefoot, I would lean towards shoes based on my experiences.

Your horse sounds a little more like my TB though. He has high/low (one hoof grows the toe/heel forward rather than down, he grazes with legs splayed because he has very long legs and that is the only way he can reach the grass to eat). “Fixing” him has not been as easy.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

It’s not going to matter what type of shoe is used if the trim isn’t right.

[TBFAN]

^ My experience echoes what BoyleHeights says. Incorporating the
“rocker” trim and shoe has done wonders for all my OTTBs with negative palmar angles. The mechanics are part of it - you can’t just slap a rocker shoe on and expect miracles.
IME, the trim/shoe allow the heels to unfold as was said. I have used this method to increase sole depth almost immediately.
If you have not already, you would need to take xrays to determine how much angle you have or don’t have and to measure the change between shoeings.
NANRIC is the way to go, as far as I’m concerned.
Wedge pads will not allow the type of change you’re looking for.

[heronponie]

[QUOTE=ohmissbrittany;8317565]
I’ve got the guy that was Texas A&M’s farrier for 20 years on the case, but he’s not too optimistic. He says if there isn’t enough digital cushion, the heel may never be stable, and I’m looking at “serviceably sound but probably declining”… Also sending data to the podiatrist from NANRIC for a third opinion, haha. I’m hoping it’s a bit more positive.[/QUOTE]

…does he not realize that the digital cushion is fixable?

[S1969]

@ohmissbrittany;8317404

I don’t want to piss off my vet/farrier, but what we are doing currently isn’t helping.

Have you gotten them out to look at your horse together? That might be what I would do to start if you’re not looking to switch farriers or vets.

The thing is, unless you can apply the shoes yourself, researching types of shoes or trims without your farrier involved is pointless. If you have to explain it to him/her - they are the wrong person to work on your horse.

If the vet and farrier just disagree (and, my farrier has told me of several big disagreements he has had with vets in the past), getting them together next to the horse might help. (In one case, the farrier wasn’t arguing the potential for some special shoeing that was recommended by the vet, but was trying to explain that there was no way to nail it on given the condition of the hoof…and after they met in person this became clear - previously the horse owner was trying to interpret and explain to the other party which is never good.)

If neither are getting the results you want - seems like it’s time for a 2nd opinion. I definitely would not just “take the horse barefoot” and see what happens, if it’s already having issues. Trimming is important in barefoot horses too…and no reason to think that would be any better if the farrier trims the same way.

[crimsonsky]

[QUOTE=ohmissbrittany;8317565]
I’ve got the guy that was Texas A&M’s farrier for 20 years on the case, but he’s not too optimistic. He says if there isn’t enough digital cushion, the heel may never be stable, and I’m looking at “serviceably sound but probably declining”… Also sending data to the podiatrist from NANRIC for a third opinion, haha. I’m hoping it’s a bit more positive.[/QUOTE]

Please post photos.

[netg]

My TB had horribly underrun heels (yes, started at the track, too), and even with a farrier trimming as carefully as possible, it just wasn’t doing the job to help him. When I started riding with my trainer, he suggested barefoot. I had been considering giving my guy 6 months without shoes or work once my youngster was started to help it, so finding a trainer who had taken problem hooves barefoot and learned how to handle it, which boots worked when, etc., made it so I didn’t have to quit riding while taking him barefoot. He has always needed protection of some sort during rainy season, so we have used a variety of boots on him to keep him comfortable, as well as turning him out in super soft footing so he’s comfortable there without protection while it’s wet out. In dry weather, he’s comfy unprotected in rocks on trails.

Anyway, it wasn’t as much the barefoot, but the trims every 2 weeks which were REALLY minor, but involved keeping the toes as short as they could go without making him sore and trimming the heels as needed to keep them healthy which allowed his heels to open up as others mention and start to grow downward. Now we are considering putting shoes back on him, but I’m not convinced he could hold them now - he never really held on to his shoes before, and I’m afraid of the longer cycle not keeping his hooves in good shape. We’ve found a farrier who does really well, though, so it’s possible… I may do some sort of glue-ons for wet weather only to maintain him or something instead. We’re tossing around ideas, but barefoot most definitely helped reshape his hooves entirely.

[IPEsq]

I know a horse with quite short toes but still had negative angles behind and underrun heels. This is because the farrier consistently brought the toe back but didn’t bring the bars back/trim the heels. Vet recommended wedging temporarily, a shoe with some more heel support under where the top of the heels were bulging out, and better trims. Can’t say if that would have done the trick, because owner pulled the shoes instead and farrier disagreed with vet on the trim. I agreed with the vet, fwiw.