[UPDATE #115] Rocker shoes or barefoot for a low-heeled negative palmar angle horse?

One of my boarders horses went through this over the spring/summer, treated with omni directional heart bar shoes, she is now in a regular shoe on one still in heart bar on the other. Sound and back in work for 2 months or so now.

I’d like to see photos too.

Is it really a lack of heel, or is the heel growing forward? You can back the toe all you want, but if you don’t back the heel up with it, it’s not going to fix the problem.

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8320371]
I know a horse with quite short toes but still had negative angles behind and underrun heels. This is because the farrier consistently brought the toe back but didn’t bring the bars back/trim the heels. Vet recommended wedging temporarily, a shoe with some more heel support under where the top of the heels were bulging out, and better trims. Can’t say if that would have done the trick, because owner pulled the shoes instead and farrier disagreed with vet on the trim. I agreed with the vet, fwiw. ;)[/QUOTE]

The more I read, the more I think we are not trimming the heels like they should be. Thanks for your story!!!

I uploaded photos! http://imgur.com/a/vFMAY

There are radiographs over the past two years, a screenshot of the MRI (shows digital cushion), and photos of the feet as they are today. She is about a week and a half overdue, and grows like a maniac in the summer, so they look worse than normal. This is because the farrier came like 4 days before her MRI, and then is waiting an extra week to order those rocker-type shoes. (should get them wednesday)

I really appreciate everyone’s advice and stories- I’m thinking maybe some heel trimming may be one of the missing pieces of the puzzle. I’m also working on leasing a theraplate, as I’ve heard nothing but good things as far as the effects on hoof health through circulation increase!

Any more knowledge you can drop on me, ideas for what to do with these tootsies is also appreciated!

The whole foot is running forward. You need a new farrier, in my opinion.

The live pictures are as of today? :eek: :no:

The are terrible. I don’t see any evidence of toes brought back, much less aggressively. The heels are so run forward.

This is trimming problem, straight up, and the current farrier isn’t remotely capable of fixing the feet. The vet is not high on my list of “knows feet” either :no:

Shoes don’t fix these feet. Properly trimming does.

One good trim will get these feet most of the way where they belong, and for a few cycles, a wedge might be needed while proper trimming continues to put them where they belong.

I’m actually shocked the feet look as bad as they do given vet involvement :frowning:

B

[QUOTE=JB;8322716]
The live pictures are as of today? :eek: :no:

The are terrible. I don’t see any evidence of toes brought back, much less aggressively. The heels are so run forward.

This is trimming problem, straight up, and the current farrier isn’t remotely capable of fixing the feet. The vet is not high on my list of “knows feet” either :no:

Shoes don’t fix these feet. Properly trimming does.

One good trim will get these feet most of the way where they belong, and for a few cycles, a wedge might be needed while proper trimming continues to put them where they belong.

I’m actually shocked the feet look as bad as they do given vet involvement :([/QUOTE]

This^^^ Although I think it will take more than one trim

Time for firing the farrier,Those are some long toes and run forward heels,putting a rocker shoe on that wont fix it.

Those toes seriously need to come back as do heels until that happens horse will continue to have problems.

It’s important to note she’s close to two weeks overdue and I promise they’re not normally that bad. She’s growing foot like a fiend, pretty normal for her in the summer. Also on SmartCombo Ultimate which has hoof-building goodness as well.

As far as firing the farrier…That’s what I’m afraid of. It’s a shame- he shoes for a lot of high-end barns and I assumed I was lucky to have him. :frowning: He did a great job last year, but all the horses he’s shod seem to be getting long toes this year.

Thanks again!

She is WAY overdue for a good trimming. This isn’t about what the calendar says. These feet have not been trimmed well in at least a full growth cycle.

One more check mark in the column of “trims high end barns/horses does not equate to competence” :frowning:

IME, these horses need to be on a short trim cycle. Usually no longer than 4 weeks, but like JB says this is not a calendar issue, it’s trying to keep the distortion from continually going past the point of no return. Otherwise, even with the best farrier it’s like trying to push a wave back into the ocean.

I’d get a new farrier if mine wasn’t out to prevent this from happening, particularly on a horse that is lame. Ouch. http://www.equipodiatry.com/podiatry.html

[QUOTE=JB;8322785]
She is WAY overdue for a good trimming. This isn’t about what the calendar says. These feet have not been trimmed well in at least a full growth cycle.

One more check mark in the column of “trims high end barns/horses does not equate to competence” :([/QUOTE]

Someone (a barefoot trimmer) PM’ed me a buttload of information, and I think you’re right. I normally shy away from barefoot trimmers, as some of them are not very open-minded about shoes or anything that’s not a natural trim (and I believe extremes of any sort are unhealthy), but this person made an excellent point about the bars being overgrown and starting to choke the frog/smash the sole. The more I read about it, the more convinced I am.

I’m thinking that my farrier may not be very strong in terms of a functional trim, and the pads/equipak have kept the bars from wearing as much as they normally did with normal shoes (which still is probably less than ideal). So they would grow, and he wouldn’t trim, and they would collapse as they got too long and now here I am.

The discussion has all been very good though- this is what the internet is for! It really opened my eyes to functional trims vs. just shortening to put on shoes, and how the structures of the foot grow. First, I’m going to try and ask my farrier to humor me (he’s pretty receptive to ideas) and trim back those heels and bars in addition to the toe. If I don’t see improvement after 2 trims, I’ll be looking for someone else.

Incidentally, does anyone know a solid farrier in the western Houston TX area I could call if things can’t be worked out?

You need a new farrier now, not in two months. If your farrier COULD fix the feet, and simply hasn’t, how is that any better than not knowing how? Farriers do NOT like owners telling them how to trim. Get someone new, pdq.

If this horse needs shoes, even for a few cycles, then you need a farrier. But that same farrier, IF he is competent, will be able to properly trim these feet if/when they comes out of shoes.

It is very possible that with some good boots, and a good trimmer, you can use boots while the trim is fixed. I don’t know - there’s an awful lot of foot that can come off right now, but the horse might be too sore without shoes for a while.

It really opened my eyes to functional trims vs. just shortening to put on shoes,

Now I understand the previous comments about “aggressively trimming the toe and making the horse sore”. The farrier was trimming everything from the bottom, and that WILL make a horse sore when 1) it’s that aggressive, and 2) you leave the heels and bars in such terrible shape. All that did was bring the coffin bone closer to the ground, and that hurts :frowning:

First, I’m going to try and ask my farrier to humor me (he’s pretty receptive to ideas) and trim back those heels and bars in addition to the toe. If I don’t see improvement after 2 trims, I’ll be looking for someone else.

Why? He’s already spent all this time doing things really badly. What makes you think he’ll listen to you, a client, who (allegedly) knows far less than he does?

Honestly, either he cannot see how bad these feet are (the likely scenario) and there isn’t anything you can do to educate him enough, or 2) he sees it and doesn’t care, and then he’s really not going to listen to you.

Incidentally, does anyone know a solid farrier in the western Houston TX area I could call if things can’t be worked out?

Try this list. Call anyone within a couple hours because some of these guys travel a good ways once a month or so.

Good Lord. No way would I give that farrier two more trims to screw up my horse even further. Why would you even consider that? That horse needs help now.

Thank you for getting us some pictures. IMO I can’t believe this guy has been a farrier for Texas A&M for 20 years… Really?! Unfortunately from reading your posts I was expecting feet like this.

I’m going to agree that you need someone else. Someone who understands how address Long Toes, Low Heels. Do some research and you will also agree you need someone else.

eta: Don’t give him anymore chances to Ef up her feet more. Don’t mess around here. He’s the one MAKING her lame.

Not sure what encompasses the western Houston area but here’s a list from the AFA
http://afaworks.com/FindAFarrier/index.aspx

this list is from Hope for Soundness website:
http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/techsupport/search/farrier/farrier_search_march_2006.html#TEXAS

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/13425/underrun-heels-not-so-innocent

To quote from the article above:

“Yet, underrun heels, if not controlled, will steadily degrade the hoof’s interior structure, leading to tremendous trouble for your horse–possibly including navicular syndrome.”

Please don’t let this guy do more damage to your girl.

[QUOTE=stb;8324093]
Good Lord. No way would I give that farrier two more trims to screw up my horse even further. Why would you even consider that? That horse needs help now.[/QUOTE]
I understand it, farriers are intimidating and you don’t want to be known among them as “that woman.” But this isn’t a small enough problem to try to smooth over…

[QUOTE=JB;8322716]
The live pictures are as of today? :eek: :no:

The are terrible. I don’t see any evidence of toes brought back, much less aggressively. The heels are so run forward.

This is trimming problem, straight up, and the current farrier isn’t remotely capable of fixing the feet. The vet is not high on my list of “knows feet” either :no:

Shoes don’t fix these feet. Properly trimming does.

One good trim will get these feet most of the way where they belong, and for a few cycles, a wedge might be needed while proper trimming continues to put them where they belong.

I’m actually shocked the feet look as bad as they do given vet involvement :([/QUOTE]

yes yes yes - everything said here!

edited as i see others have given suggestions on who else to contact to help you out. this farrier is not the one to do it.