Those are some pretty bad pictures. That is not just the look of a horse that needs a trim. I don’t think a rocker shoe is going to do anything here. You need way better trims. The heels aren’t bulging as much as I thought they would. You may not need a wedge. Hard to say until we see what the foot looks like with a proper trim.
So I got a barefoot trimmer to take a look at her. It was an educational, but not totally positive experience. She was really knowledgable as far as hoof structure and function goes, but I think was a bit too aggressive of a trimmer for a “first timer” like my mare. I’ll have to take some sole pictures, because I’m not thrilled- she’s very thin soled judging by the shallow collateral grooves on the front left “problem” foot, and VERY sore right now. I think some of that is the negative PA and hopefully will begin to resolve over the next several months as her feet adjust. The more I read, the more I think a PROPER barefoot and/or composite shoe may save my horse.
Here are those images of the trim Monday: http://imgur.com/a/sE0y7
They look decently balanced despite my horse’s awkward stance. I’m not pleased that she is sore, but I’m also not super surprised. Because I’m a dipshit, I basically asked her to do an Iron Man into life with no shoes with little intro.
I recieved a phone call from Paige Harbes, who is an ANGEL- she can’t take us on due to some health issues, but she is very chatty on the phone, talking me “off the ledge” and explaining the real transition period in all its glory- how to fit boots to relieve soreness and help encourage heel-first landing (which is where all the restorative circulation comes from), the soreness as the lateral cartilages move and the hoof regains function, the abcesses my horse might experience the first year, and how to care for my horse through them. She also referred me to another trimmer (who was what I wanted in the first place, but couldn’t fit me in the schedule for another 3 weeks- now I’ve bought us some time at least.) I’m also making calls on those lists another user posted recently (THANK YOU, BTW!)
I’ve been wrapping with Magic Cushion, a diaper, a roll of vetwrap and some duct tape while I wait for polymer pads (the EasyShoe brand?) and Cavallo boots (suggested because she’s got an oval foot at this point). She’s MUCH less sore and can walk around and graze like that for now, which makes me a little less sick to my stomach.
I’ve also reached out to Dr. Steve O’Grady and Daisy Bicking, and I’m really liking Daisy’s rehab facility and her work with both barefoot and composite materials, and a lot of hardcore hoof problems. Has anyone had any experience with these people? Are they good people?
[QUOTE=stb;8324093]
Good Lord. No way would I give that farrier two more trims to screw up my horse even further. Why would you even consider that? That horse needs help now.[/QUOTE]
Yes. After some soul searching and a lot of research on barefoot rehab for heel pain, as well as lots of new options in the way of composite shoes… I think I’m done with it. Other horses at the barn are all popping up with negative P3 angles up front and/or behind (that one hasn’t been x-rayed, but the hock soreness and “bull nosed” bulging hoof are my clues). And there is one common denominator.
PMing you.
I am not a foot expert but I do have a barefoot horse who has been a challenge this summer. In the pictures, I see very very aggressive rolling of that hoof wall at the toe. Can we see the sole sticking out at the bottom? This is strange to me, and I have to have the hoof walls on my horse tightened up quite close. I also see beveling of the quarters. This is fine. But were the heels brought back? Doesn’t look like they were to me. Or not enough. Would love to see a sole view. They still look too long in the heel to me.
[QUOTE=ohmissbrittany;8329080]
So I got a barefoot trimmer to take a look at her. It was an educational, but not totally positive experience. She was really knowledgable as far as hoof structure and function goes, but I think was a bit too aggressive of a trimmer for a “first timer” like my mare. I’ll have to take some sole pictures, because I’m not thrilled- she’s very thin soled judging by the shallow collateral grooves on the front left “problem” foot, and VERY sore right now. I think some of that is the negative PA and hopefully will begin to resolve over the next several months as her feet adjust. The more I read, the more I think a PROPER barefoot and/or composite shoe may save my horse.
Here are those images of the trim Monday: http://imgur.com/a/sE0y7
They look decently balanced despite my horse’s awkward stance. I’m not pleased that she is sore, but I’m also not super surprised. Because I’m a dipshit, I basically asked her to do an Iron Man into life with no shoes with little intro.
I recieved a phone call from Paige Harbes, who is an ANGEL- she can’t take us on due to some health issues, but she is very chatty on the phone, talking me “off the ledge” and explaining the real transition period in all its glory- how to fit boots to relieve soreness and help encourage heel-first landing (which is where all the restorative circulation comes from), the soreness as the lateral cartilages move and the hoof regains function, the abcesses my horse might experience the first year, and how to care for my horse through them. She also referred me to another trimmer (who was what I wanted in the first place, but couldn’t fit me in the schedule for another 3 weeks- now I’ve bought us some time at least.) I’m also making calls on those lists another user posted recently (THANK YOU, BTW!)
I’ve been wrapping with Magic Cushion, a diaper, a roll of vetwrap and some duct tape while I wait for polymer pads (the EasyShoe brand?) and Cavallo boots (suggested because she’s got an oval foot at this point). She’s MUCH less sore and can walk around and graze like that for now, which makes me a little less sick to my stomach.
I’ve also reached out to Dr. Steve O’Grady and Daisy Bicking, and I’m really liking Daisy’s rehab facility and her work with both barefoot and composite materials, and a lot of hardcore hoof problems. Has anyone had any experience with these people? Are they good people?[/QUOTE]
Honestly, I think you should stop researching trimming/hoof care yourself and get a farrier that is recommended by your vet and/or someone who has a horse with good feet.
I was surprised by the bad pictures as well - and think that if you are as well-versed as you seem to be about hoof care, you should have seen that they are simply underrun and long. I wouldn’t make any other assumptions about the hoof quality yet - thin sole, negative angles, etc. - until you get a decent trim. I wouldn’t be surprised if 2-3 cycles of good trimming will eliminate some of the other issues you’ve had in the past.
A barefoot trimmer may or may not be good - just like a farrier…the only drawback is that if your horse really does need shoes you’ll need to find someone else.
All the horse people in your area can’t use the crappy farrier you were using – who do they use? My vet could give me a list of 20 farriers in my area if I called - and I could probably ask for references from most of them.
[QUOTE=S1969;8329532]
Honestly, I think you should stop researching trimming/hoof care yourself and get a farrier that is recommended by your vet and/or someone who has a horse with good feet.[/QUOTE]
That would be all well and good if that vet wasn’t in agreement with the farrier that did this. They both agree that there is no fixing my horse and all I can do is continue to add mechanics to shoes until we can’t keep her sound because she is destined to be crippled one day, and I disagree (and it seems many COTHers do too and agree it’s a trimming problem). It seems I can’t trust anyone completely and is very frustrating. I got into my career so I could pay for knowledgable people to do right by my horse, and not need to read about everything like I am now in order to try and advocate for my animal.
And I know her sole is thin on that foot because we have XRayed them in the past and that’s why we did the pads in the first place. The collateral grooves are just a bit shallower post trim. You forget I have had a vet (two, really) involved and had foot issues for over a year so I have learned a thing or two.
Breathe 
You absolutely should be able to bring these feet back with good trimming and maybe boots or shoes.
I’m okay with the toe being backed that far, but the heels still don’t look addressed. How sore is she? I, personally, am not a fan of the aggressive quarter scooping technique. Can we get a view of the bottom of the foot?
I’d call this better, but not good. Keep looking.
You are definitely on the right track. Those feet were a mess and it was time to hire another hoof professional. Poor horse needs to grow out a new properly shaped foot, and that’s going to take time. If you do a super conservative trim it takes a lot longer to get the proper hoof growth and shape. What seems like an aggressive first trim…really isn’t super aggressive. Yes, the horse will be a little footy, but as he develops a properly balanced foot he’ll be a lot sounder. In the interim, try the hoof boots. I recently tried a set of Cavalo hoof boots on one of mine and was surprised how easily the horse adapted.
Absolutely, once you get there right situation set up - competent trimming often enough, and liberal use of boots or shoes to keep her from being sore.
I’m okay with the toe being backed that far, but the heels still don’t look addressed. How sore is she? I, personally, am not a fan of the aggressive quarter scooping technique. Can we get a view of the bottom of the foot?
Exactly my thoughts. I’m pretty sure the toes can come back even farther, but you can’t do that without a rocker on this foot, so if the trimmer doesn’t know how to safely do that, better to back them up like this for now. The heels look very untouched 
It looks like all that’s done now is shorter toes putting the weight back with still no heel under the foot and leg 
I’d call this better, but not good. Keep looking.
Yep, unless the solars, and a picture or 2 from directly at the side of the foot shows something that’s not shown here, this is not the trimmer to fix these feet
Here’s how you need to take pictures so we can more accurately see the relationship of structures
http://www.all-natural-horse-care.com/good-hoof-photos.html
I disagree with Mosey on the quarters. Especially for a horse that is new to barefoot. My horse has good feet but with recent dry weather and lots of bugs, he will crack off the quarters if I don’t get his feet cleaned up every 3 weeks! The hoof wall there is the weakest and it does not need to bear any weight. For a horse who just had shoes, I think you’d be looking at breakage if they didn’t scoop out the quarters. Still doesn’t address the fact that the heels are still too long. I wasn’t expecting the heels to be fixed in one trim but I honestly don’t see much difference here–only further backing up of the toe.
And I very well could be wrong about the quarters 
I never had one that really needed it. Either way, heels are still a problem.
IME, quarter cracking is due to not trimming enough at the heels and/or the quarters. By following the sole, one might end up with a bit of a scoop if that’s how the sole is. If the wall is appropriately rolled, which might be a more aggressive roll on harder ground, then it’s bearing weight just like everything else- inner wall and outer edge of sole. IMHO it’s ok to put a light scoop on for some situations, but these are pretty aggressive as stated, and I think that’s the issue - how big they are, not that they are there - and they may actually be contributing so some soreness because of how forward the heels still are
brittany, these feet are “decently balanced” in the medial/lateral plane (M/L), ie looking at them from the front, but they are still pretty awful in the anterior/posterior (AP) plan, ie looking at them from the side
[QUOTE=ohmissbrittany;8329642]
That would be all well and good if that vet wasn’t in agreement with the farrier that did this. They both agree that there is no fixing my horse and all I can do is continue to add mechanics to shoes until we can’t keep her sound because she is destined to be crippled one day, and I disagree (and it seems many COTHers do too and agree it’s a trimming problem). It seems I can’t trust anyone completely and is very frustrating. I got into my career so I could pay for knowledgable people to do right by my horse, and not need to read about everything like I am now in order to try and advocate for my animal.
And I know her sole is thin on that foot because we have XRayed them in the past and that’s why we did the pads in the first place. The collateral grooves are just a bit shallower post trim. You forget I have had a vet (two, really) involved and had foot issues for over a year so I have learned a thing or two.[/QUOTE]
I understand what you’re saying - I just don’t think your knowledge is going to fix the problems. It won’t help to be an expert on hoof mechanics and trimming if you can’t get a farrier to do the work properly. If you have to diagnose and tell them what to do - you’re in trouble.
If your vet thinks the 1st set of photos was good enough, I would be looking for another vet too, although I know sometimes that’s not possible. I also think that some vets are great about feet, and others aren’t as much - and I wouldn’t necessarily get rid of a vet that was great at other things just because they aren’t as well-versed in feet…(obviously I’d like both but if I didn’t have options I might be willing to settle)…but only if I could get an excellent farrier.
Is there a local Facebook horse group on which you can ask for farrier references?
I believe the horse has thin soles, but if the trimming can correct everything but that - it could be managed with a variety of solutions - shoes, pads, boots…etc.
I have no doubt the soles are currently thin - toes and heels that run forward will thin the sole. If that is the only reason, or at least the major reason the soles are thing, then getting the feet corrected will improve sole thickness and concavity to whatever degree the genetics (and permanent damage) allow.
I don’t know what happened to my post… it went poof!
Anyway, I agree they look better but still not good enough. Keep looking and find someone who understands how to get the foot back underneath her.
Keep doing your research because that is the only way you’re going to know if the new or prospective hoof guru knows what they are doing and will be able to help your horse or not.
Keeping her in boots right now will be a good idea because she’s going to need frequent trims to get those heels back where they need to be. I also agree that the heels don’t look like they’ve been touched at all. They are still run forward and folded under.
The new trim is a definite improvement. I wouldn’t be quite so quick to dismiss this trimmer… did you ask her why she didn’t lower the heels? If she’d be willing to come back and take off more heel, that would help, at least until you find a farrier who can do everything you want. This one at least got you partway where you need to be. I don’t like the idea of having to handhold a hoof care professional, but in this case it’s better than your other options, at least for the time being.
For soreness, you can try venice turpentine.
[QUOTE=Mosey_2003;8329662]
Breathe
You absolutely should be able to bring these feet back with good trimming and maybe boots or shoes.
I’m okay with the toe being backed that far, but the heels still don’t look addressed. How sore is she? I, personally, am not a fan of the aggressive quarter scooping technique. Can we get a view of the bottom of the foot?
I’d call this better, but not good. Keep looking.[/QUOTE]
IMHO, I think the toes could come back a bit more. I think it can be tough about how much to quarter scoop, especially for trimmers since it could be another 4-6 weeks before the horse gets trimmed. Too little and they’ll need to be redone fairly quickly.
With respect to the heels, doesn’t appear that much was done to move them back so the quarter scooping is too far forward. Heels are still long and forward unfortunately.
[QUOTE=S1969;8329532]
Honestly, I think you should stop researching trimming/hoof care yourself and get a farrier that is recommended by your vet and/or someone who has a horse with good feet.
.[/QUOTE]
This I disagree with. I think given how the feet look and what the vet was ok with, all the more reason to do more research! In order to evaluate a trim and to know if the farrier does a decent job, she should be educating her eye etc.
[QUOTE=Larbear;8330100]
This I disagree with. I think given how the feet look and what the vet was ok with, all the more reason to do more research! In order to evaluate a trim and to know if the farrier does a decent job, she should be educating her eye etc.[/QUOTE]
:yes:
You need to know what you’re looking AT and what you’re looking FOR. That’s how I started learning. Most vets just simply aren’t going to be a good resource for this sort of thing, and I’ve not met many farriers or barefoot trimmers that don’t think they’re doing the right thing.
Plus, with something like this, once you understand what you’re seeing and what needs to be done, you can learn to touch up heels and toes in between trims (if you don’t end up with shoes) and that can help a lot with a foot that’s running forward.
