[UPDATE #115] Rocker shoes or barefoot for a low-heeled negative palmar angle horse?

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Larbear;8330100]
This I disagree with. I think given how the feet look and what the vet was ok with, all the more reason to do more research! In order to evaluate a trim and to know if the farrier does a decent job, she should be educating her eye etc.[/QUOTE]

The point I was trying to make is that all the time spending educating yourself isn’t going to matter if you don’t find a better farrier. It takes years of experience to really know how to handle a problem hoof - and while you can learn by reading and getting advice on COTH, until a qualified farrier is involved it’s not very helpful for the horse.

According to the OP, this situation has been going on for over a year and I’m assuming the same vet and farrier…

[Frizzle]

I would get a rasp and work on those heels a little bit every few days. You want the seat of corn (the little “cat’s ear” triangle) to be at the back of the frog, when you’re looking at the bottom of the hoof. And by making very small changes every few days and gradually bringing the heels back to where they belong, the horse should be less sore. It’s probably going to take some time, though, as all the internal structures in the back of the hoof have been stressed by that under run heel and will need some time to heal.

[ohmissbrittany]

http://m.imgur.com/a/sE0y7

Added sole view!! So after a 24 hour epsom/DMSO foot wrap she’s 110% better- almost completely sound (bear in mind the compelling event is collateral ligament desmitis which still doesn’t feel great). Honestly I couldn’t have gotten these pictures yesterday because of the soreness.

I do agree the heels could come back more, but for a first trim it’s not the worst. It sounds like there’s a bit of a transition period, much like orthodontic braces, and I wouldn’t want to do too much too soon! I’d really like to keep x-raying that PA as well so we don’t do more harm than good :-/

Any other thoughts on the feet?? Discussion has been very educational for me!!

[Mosey_2003]

Find someone else.

[JB]

No, it’s not the worst trim, it is an improvement, but it still fairly stinks

The heels have SO much room to come back - there’s no reason they could not have been brought back more.

I don’t see shallow collateral groves. I see deep ones, and on the first solar shot I see a lump at the top of the pic (so the inside of that RF) and that, combined with the deep CGs, tells me there’s likely a wad of false/retained sole that someone competent has got to get out. That may well be the whole reason the last farrier couldn’t figure out how to trim properly - he was trimming to the “sole”, but not seeing that the sole is not the live sole. That’s just in addition to clearly not remotely seeing how long/run forward the heels and toes had gotten. He was just way over his head

I would also start treating for thrush that may well be in those deep central sulci - cow mastitis ointment Tomorrow is really good stuff, you can get that way deep in there, and it’s gooey so stays pretty well. You can then stuff some cotton in there too to help it all stay.

[JB]

Oh, I forgot - “wouldn’t want to do too much too soon” - why? Every day these feet are in even this condition, is another day where damage is occurring.

There is no reason a competent farrier cannot trim these feet all where they belong in one fell swoop, and then use whatever orthotics are necessary to make the feet comfortable, so the horse can walk and move and increase circulation and improve the health of her feet.

If the full, proper trim leads to a bit of a broken back axis because there’s not enough heel height, then use a wedge pad/shoe for a few cycles. If the frog cannot take more weight due to lowered heels, then trim the frogs a bit more than you might do otherwise, to get some weight off them. You can even use pads and packing that have cutouts over the frog so as to not put extra pressure on them.

Yes, get the feet trimmed like they should be - this time, every time. There’s no reason to dink around and take things this slowly

Ok, now, that said - sometimes there is a reason to do a “mostly” trim - get the toe “mostly” back, get the heels “mostly” back, leave a bit more wall than you might otherwise, in order to allow the horse to do some of his own earing of the foot, especially coming out of shoes. But even then, you come back in 1-2 weeks, see how the foot has worn, and do most, if not the rest of the trimming.

[ohmissbrittany]

I see!! That makes more sense! I was worried the groove becoming shallower at the point of the frog (thought collateral groove was all the way to the toe) was bad in the sense that the coffin was like, right there. But you’re right, with P3 tipped back that really shouldn’t be the case. (I shit you not, last year the back was almost a whole centimeter below the tip http://imgur.com/Lag7SFm)

What causes retained sole?! Other than poor trims- is it something that happens if the horse gets sick or something? Or is this a consequence of those bars smashing in?

[JB]

You WANT the depth at the frog apex (tip) to be shallow. It should be almost non-existent at the top, and increasing as you get to the heels, without being overly deep back there.

Retained sole is from lack of recognition of what sole needs to come out each trim. It builds and compacts and becomes waxy/shiny like live sole, but if one would look at the CG closer to the apex, it would be clear that it’s building and needs to come out.

That xray makes me cringe! :eek: :no:

[ohmissbrittany]

[QUOTE=Frizzle;8330615]
I would get a rasp and work on those heels a little bit every few days. You want the seat of corn (the little “cat’s ear” triangle) to be at the back of the frog, when you’re looking at the bottom of the hoof. And by making very small changes every few days and gradually bringing the heels back to where they belong, the horse should be less sore. It’s probably going to take some time, though, as all the internal structures in the back of the hoof have been stressed by that under run heel and will need some time to heal.[/QUOTE]

Yes… I’d be more comfortable if I could see a before and after on radiographs. Her tendency toward a negative palmar angle makes the idea of taking a ton of heel all at once a little scary- I’m not trying to snap a tendon on top of everything else

[JB]

[QUOTE=ohmissbrittany;8331009]
Yes… I’d be more comfortable if I could see a before and after on radiographs. Her tendency toward a negative palmar angle makes the idea of taking a ton of heel all at once a little scary- I’m not trying to snap a tendon on top of everything else :([/QUOTE]

But, the NPA issue is caused directly by 2 things

• not trimming the heels back where they belong, therefore allowing them to run up under the middle of the foot, removing all support at the back of the foot and allowing it to "collapse

• not trimming the toes back, creating more and more leverage up front, which tips the foot back

Get rid of the leverage, get the heels back under the foot, and you are so, so much better off and will allow and cause things to improve

[IPEsq]

Oh dear, yeah that sole view confirms the heels were hardly addressed. I’m with JB.

[WannabeDQ]

I have a horse with this issue and I can sympathize with you. My guy has a low, flat foot that is a conformational defect and I knew in purchasing him that proper foot care would make or brake him. I hired the best farrier in my area, he did all the big show barns and charged a ton of money… so he must be good, right? Wrong. He lamed my guy up immediately. I gave him a chance to fix his work but he could not, so he was fired. Luckily I have a great vet who has no problem referring me to a specialist when she didn’t know how to fix the problem. New vet, new farrier and I had a sound horse! We did have to do wedge shoes at first to make him comfortable but now he is in a regular shoe with equipak pads. His foot looks almost ‘normal’ now, thanks to my farriers excellent trimming and I won’t let anyone touch his feet ever again except this farrier. Ha!

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but the vet said letting the foot get wet and soft was NOT good for a horse suffering from low palmar angle. While we were getting my horse back on track he could not go out in the rain or the morning dew and we applied Effol whenever his feet were exposed to water. Now that he has a great foot, he can go out 24/7.

Just wanted to add: even though his foot is the best I have ever seen it, he still can not go barefoot AT ALL. Yours may be different though.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Frizzle;8330615]
I would get a rasp and work on those heels a little bit every few days. You want the seat of corn (the little “cat’s ear” triangle) to be at the back of the frog, when you’re looking at the bottom of the hoof. And by making very small changes every few days and gradually bringing the heels back to where they belong, the horse should be less sore. It’s probably going to take some time, though, as all the internal structures in the back of the hoof have been stressed by that under run heel and will need some time to heal.[/QUOTE]

My farrier would absolutely fire me if I started rasping my horse’s heels in between his trims - especially if it was a horse that needed remedial trimming.

If you really know what you’re doing, this may be the correct way of achieving good results, but I would bet that most of us are not competent enough to do this.

A far better solution would be to get a competent farrier involved. If the horse needs additional trimming between “normal” visits - that person should be the one to do it. Although I agree with JB - we might be surprised what one good trim would accomplish, rather than “dinking around” (I love that phrase!)

[JB]

IME, if a competent farrier/trimmer shows a thoughtful owner how to take a few swipes to the heels every 2-3 days, that can speed things along. It’s not reasonable to have the trimmer out 2-3 times a week just to go swipe-swipe. This is less about “additional trimming”, as it is about just constant minor corrective actions, which heels like this might need for maybe a few full trim cycles.

It certainly made a huge difference for my horse coming out of shoes. That was my first introduction to using the rasp. That part is really pretty easy

[Mosey_2003]

[QUOTE=JB;8331257]
IME, if a competent farrier/trimmer shows a thoughtful owner how to take a few swipes to the heels every 2-3 days, that can speed things along. It’s not reasonable to have the trimmer out 2-3 times a week just to go swipe-swipe. This is less about “additional trimming”, as it is about just constant minor corrective actions, which heels like this might need for maybe a few full trim cycles.

It certainly made a huge difference for my horse coming out of shoes. That was my first introduction to using the rasp. That part is really pretty easy :)[/QUOTE]
:yes:

If you’re shown how to do it properly, taking a swipe with the finer side of a rasp every few days is not going to lame a horse (that needs it). Many farriers will show you how to do that and be totally okay with it. It’s not like if you get the hooves in better shape faster you’re going to stop needing your farrier. My last farrier was the best I could get, but I didn’t feel he backed the toe enough, so I always did a little more after he left. He never noticed or said anything.

[BoyleHeightsKid]

I’m totally with JB that this horse can be where it needs to be in ONE trim by someone who knows what they are doing.

[Mosey_2003]

This really gets me thinking again on horse ownership and hoof care in this country (may be others too, but I’ve not lived there). It’s like, when you get a horse, you’re not expected to know anything about their feet, short of how to paint on thrush medicine or turpentine or hoof oil. The feeling is that farriers and vets are the only ones that have this knowledge, and it’s somehow forbidden that ‘laypeople’ stick their noses in. We make ourselves knowledgeable about the rest of our horses’ care, why not hooves?

It’s not rocket science to learn how they work, what the various parts do, how they should be trimmed. As horse owners, we should be able to look at a hoof and say, “No, that doesn’t look right. We need to change something here.” We should be able to learn that sometimes heels and toes need to be backed, and we should be able to learn how to do that.

Hell, horse owners oftentimes learn how to give shots so the vet doesn’t have to keep coming out in between, and to me that’s a lot harder than swiping a rasp lightly :lol:

[JB]

I WISH more of us would make ourselves more knowledgeable about other areas! Nutrition anyone? LOL So many have zero idea what their horse grain is or how much they’re getting, how much hay (or even what kind), let alone some more specific but still elementary concepts

You are right though, it’s just not that difficult to learn the basics of feet - learn what healthy feet should look like, that’s all you need to do, then it becomes easy to see when things are not like that. It may be that a given horse will never have textbook perfect feet - injury, disease, conformation, whatever. But if you never know the ideal, you’ll never, ever know when things are not right. Long toes and underrun heels are SO EASY to see, once you have seen it compared to correct toes and heels. If that’s all owners learned to see - LTLH - 90% of horses would probably have better farriers.

[Mosey_2003]

True!

[BoyleHeightsKid]

^^^ JB and Mosey as well…

To quote an old BO. “I don’t want to know about feet, just let the farrier take care of it”. If I had listened that 11 years ago, I would have a crippled expensive pasture ornament.