Pluvinel - I usually agree with you on training related stuff, but we’ve had this conversation before. The technical person in you really comes out here. I truly do not understand how you can house this big dichotomy in your brain, but you do. Judging dressage movements, even with an applied set of standards, is still 100% subjective. None of the applications in the links you provided are for a subjective artistic endeavor. Apples and oranges.
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Didn’t watch, didn’t read. Having written for many judges at every placement around the arena, it is fascinating what can or can’t be seen at the different angles. Food for thought.
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True, however in the case of the 1st place horse, take a look at the discrepancy between the 3 judges all sitting on the short side.
Yes, I know we have had this discussion. Unfortunately, an internet BB is not a good forum to explain these things.
Rest assured, there is no “dichotomy” in my brain. The quantification and assessment of “subjectively evaluated” qualities is done every day in the social sciences, in medicine, in engineering (not everything can be measured with a ruler).
There is a large body of statistical methodology that has been developed precisely to quantify and study all manner “subjective” properties.
We are not rating an “artistic endeavor.” Dressage is an Olympic sport. As such, I would want the “measurement system” to be able to properly place the performance of the athletes against some agreed-upon standard. We are not rating whether Picasso was better than Mondrian or worse than van Gogh. That is art. We are discussing the integrity, reliability and reproducibility for the scoring system of an Olympic sport.
The fact that this thread was started on the “odd placings” of a particular judge addresses the fact that the dressage measurement system has never been subjected to a rigorous evaluation. In measurement system development, you first validate the measurement system, then, only then… once you have a valid system, you can use the measurement system to quantify a property.
David Stickland, is a physicist in Europe, attempted to reinvent statistical methodology back 10-15 yrs ago instead of using “industry standard” tools and techniques. None of his work would withstand rigorous statistical scrutiny.
If you are interested in learning about these topics, I am willing to engage. But if you search COTH with the search topics of “Kendall’s Coefficient of Concordance, inter-rater reliability, or Kappa” there is a ton of stuff I have previously written and is worth revisiting.
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OK. But doesn’t that require that all other aspects of what you are measuring are relatively equal? Horses move differently. Riders ride with varying degrees of skill. One ride on this day by the same horse and rider will not be identical to a different ride on another day by the same horse and rider. I guess what I’m saying is that there are too many variables for any given ride. Not to mention the judges’ opinions.
Let’s say for example, that they have this well developed and validated measurement system. All the judges are trained in its use and application. Now, do we still think there will be 100% agreement across the judging panel for a single test ridden by a single rider and horse? I don’t. It’s still going to be subjective to a degree.
I’m not arguing with you; clearly you are an expert in this subject matter and I am not anywhere close to knowledgeable about it. I have a hard time seeing how it can be used to judge a sport - where there is a degree of artistic license. In freestyles, Artistic Impression is one of the scores. In tests, even the FEI tests, Harmony is also scored. So subjective. I just don’t think you can accurately quantify some of those things.
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Is anyone having trouble with the auto this morning? It’s very low, can hardly hear the commentator. I have adjusted my laptop as much as possible with no luck.
Sigh…The short answer is No. But you are not alone in this belief. This statement is the product of our educational system where they teach students to “Hold all variables constant and vary one factor at a time.”
This is called OFAT (one factor at a time) experimentation. It is exceptionally inefficient methodology. There is this thing called multivariate experimentation where you change ALL variables in a systematic, structured way to determine which factors impact the outcome. This is taught a semester-long courses in multivariable applied statistics.To this day, university students are still taught OFAT experimentation…to my dismay. So you are not alone.
Let’s say for example, that they have this well developed and validated measurement system. All the judges are trained in its use and application. Now, do we still think there will be 100% agreement across the judging panel for a single test ridden by a single rider and horse? I don’t. It’s still going to be subjective to a degree.
You will never get 100% agreement. Every measurement system has variability. It is called “experimental error”…think of “margin of error” you hear in polls. Every time you get on the scale and weigh yourself in a digital scale, you will probably get a number that varies out in the decimal. Repeat weighing yourself 10 times one after the other and you can compute the standard deviation. This i the measurement error in your scale. So if your scale is +/- 0.5 lb you will not be able to tell if you lost half a pound as the scale does not have the resolution to determine that small a change.
The level of “error” in a subjective assessment is part of the measurement system validation…eg., how well can your measurement system discriminate between the competitors. Can you…or should you…be giving scores to 3rd decimal place? Just because you can divide the numerator by the denominator doesn’t make the differences real. What is the measurement system error? Is it so high that it can or cannot discriminate into the 3rd decimal? Is it fair to the riders? Should ties be called when the system cannot resolve one ride from another?. Yes, judging is going to be subjective, no question about it. Part of the validation of a measurement system is determining the variation is the individual judge’s assessment. That is how a measurement system is tested.
I’m not arguing with you; clearly you are an expert in this subject matter and I am not anywhere close to knowledgeable about it. I have a hard time seeing how it can be used to judge a sport - where there is a degree of artistic license. In freestyles, Artistic Impression is one of the scores. In tests, even the FEI tests, Harmony is also scored. So subjective. I just don’t think you can accurately quantify some of those things.
Judging a “freestyle” is different that judging “compulsory figures.” There is no score for "artistic impression in a standard dressage test. You have to be very clear and specific about what one is judging to be fair to the horse and riders.
I don’t consider this “arguing.” You are asking legitimate questions. If you have these questions, then others will have those questions too.
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Yes and I’m on a laptop too.
Love the junior rider Leah Drew riding without a coat and she got a great score tied for 3rd after her ride, showing that the judges don’t care. It is HOT there and yet too much of the attitude is that it’s a championship so you have to wear a coat.
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Not sure Jorst really sells hers. She just puts them on the plane after the show and sends them back to Helgestrand. if the scores weren’t high enough.
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Well, if that’s part of what she’s paying for as a Helgstrand client, then that’s her choice.
But as commentary, I believe that’s referring to the alleged situation with Ray Dance, who she had for three years before he went back to Helgstrand to be sold.
Life ain’t fair and the world is mean.
Every day you ride against your own rides. Nothing changes at the horse show- you are still you riding your horse and showing them to the best of your ability. What she (insert CJ or anyone else with wads of cash) does with her horses is literally nothing you can influence. Letting her sit in your head as a downer is just wasted time.
Ride your best and don’t think about those who have more- those people will always exist and fretting about them just wastes your own time.
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I’m not sure what anyone is supposed to do.
If you’re wealthy and have quality horses in full training who “do it all for you” then people get mad about that. If you wealthy and you ride all your own, then that’s not okay either. I guess the only permissible thing for wealthy people who enjoy dressage to do is stay home and provide rides for scrappy young talented people so the Chronicle can write articles about them. Lord forbid you be wealthy and also good, which apparently is perfectly acceptable over on the jumper side of the house but absolutely impermissible in any other discipline.
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I do, too. Literally had an argument with a local trainer last week who bullied her junior into wearing her coat for her ride in 90 degree heat. For someone as young as this trainer to still be holding on to the “I had to do it and I lived, so now you have to” is just… wrong. I’ve not had a judge, including Gary Rockwell, one of the fussiest judges I know about all things apparel (I was scribing when he chased the TD down about a conservative two toned shirt when a rider was without a coat) DOES NOT CARE if you are wearing a coat in hot weather. AT ALL.
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Was standing ringside by Hilda Gurney years ago when my trainer went in on my horse, in 90 degree weather wearing a coat. Hilda looked at me and asked why she was wearing the coat and added “judges don’t want to see anyone pass out!”
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I loved watching Codi Harrison’s rides. I noted that many times her curb rein was loose. Love that!!!
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lololol you have really hit the nail on the head here.
I would enjoy competing against the likes of Charlotte Jorst. She rides lovely horses well and obviously adores them. Win win.
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To be competitive at the top of the sport, deep pockets are necessary, and everyone knows it. Without wealthy horse owners - jumpers or dressage- there are no elite competitions.
There’s an important distinction between the jumper and dressage disciplines though. In dressage, we have the traditional concept that riders start and develop their young horses themselves, and bring them up through the levels, with guidance as necessary, and ultimately reach the highest level together. Verdades/Laura Graves, and Udon/Steffen Peters are examples. It doesn’t happen all the time, but it is a principle of our discipline. This kind of longevity in the sport asks for an investment of wealth, and is less transactional than simply being a wealthy owner or rider.
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Reiner Klimke’s primary profession was as an attorney. 
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I have never heard this. Possibly the only place I can think of this being a “principle” is the Spanish Riding School, but nowhere have I ever heard that producing the horse yourself is a guiding principle of dressage.
If so that will be news to most of our top riders and owners, most of whom purchase horses either already at the level or vanishingly close. Not many of them are buying 3 year olds.
Laura Graves is exactly the type of person I was (satirically) commenting on wealthy people being expected to procure horses for rather than ride them themselves.
Even so, both of the wealthy individuals being commented on do buy young horses and produce them, and they’re still being crapped on for being able to buy good young horses to produce, hence why I asked what exactly a wealthy person is permitted to do to pass muster.
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