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First time breeder :) - Maiden Mare

Sport Horse Breeding
#1

After all the years reading this incredibly informative forum, I took the plunge and bred the love of my life, TB Mare Livvie last week. :slight_smile: Now… I need some hand holding, good thoughts and foal dance participants!

I had an experienced vet, fantastic stallion owner (Daventry - would recommend her in a heartbeat) We are all confident, but I guess its normal to have some doubt, or not want to be overly excited.

Wishful thinking on my part, but I feel like the mare has settled mentally and her behaviour has changed significantly in the last few days… :lol: Typical and consistent “heat signs” she’s displayed since she started cycling are non existent right now ( I’ve had her since she was 6 months old)

So here is the synopsis.

Ultrasounded Aug 21 - 29mm follicle left side, none on the right. No Edema Was given 1ml lutalyse. Advised to order semen for Aug 24th

Ultrasound Aug 24th - multiple follicles 30mm to 35mm Left side. Moderate Edema. Given 1ml Deslorelin and bred with semen

Fingers crossed! Would love feedback on others experience with maiden Tb mares. Vet was pretty confident, but of course I’m googling like mad and making myself paranoid!

Thanks all! I don’t know how I’m going to make it to the Preg check next friday!

#2

[QUOTE=LivviesMom;6522778]
After all the years reading this incredibly informative forum, I took the plunge and bred the love of my life, TB Mare Livvie last week. :slight_smile: Now… I need some hand holding, good thoughts and foal dance participants!

I had an experienced vet, fantastic stallion owner (Daventry - would recommend her in a heartbeat) We are all confident, but I guess its normal to have some doubt, or not want to be overly excited.

Wishful thinking on my part, but I feel like the mare has settled mentally and her behaviour has changed significantly in the last few days… :lol: Typical and consistent “heat signs” she’s displayed since she started cycling are non existent right now ( I’ve had her since she was 6 months old)

So here is the synopsis.

Ultrasounded Aug 21 - 29mm follicle left side, none on the right. No Edema Was given 1ml lutalyse. Advised to order semen for Aug 24th

Ultrasound Aug 24th - multiple follicles 30mm to 35mm Left side. Moderate Edema. Given 1ml Deslorelin and bred with semen

Fingers crossed! Would love feedback on others experience with maiden Tb mares. Vet was pretty confident, but of course I’m googling like mad and making myself paranoid!

Thanks all! I don’t know how I’m going to make it to the Preg check next friday![/QUOTE]

Sooo… your vet gave Lutalyse even though she was starting her heat and had a nice 29 mm follicle already? And then your vet bred her when the largest follicle she had was at 35 mm? Gave Deslorelin but no Oxytocin? No post-insemination check to see when she ovulated?

AyayAYE… fingers crossed for you for some sheer blind luck, but i’d be finding another vet for my next try if I were you!! :eek: :eek:

Sounds to me like that was a transitional heat for her, and that might be why you’re not seeing any strong heat signs from her lately. Most people don’t attempt a first breeding at the end of August.

I hope i’m all wet. Keep us posted.

#3

I must say, that is the first time I ever heard of a vet giving lutalyse and ordering semen, all at the same time. Hopefully you will have a pregnancy at your check, but I’m scratching my head.

#4

I bred my 14 y/o maiden mare this spring. First culture came back dirty, so we treated and waited for the next heat. Next cycle, culture was clean but still a tiny bit of inflammation; vet said go for it. Bred live cover on a 38mm follicle, with deslorelin to be safe. Vet worried that the mare’s cervix does not open fully, so we lavaged 6 hrs after breeding and gave oxytocin 2x daily for two days. Mare had ovulated when checked the next day.

14 days later, no pregnancy. Mare had been through a couple stressful situations within a week after breeding (trailered with buddy, buddy left to go ride, mare threw a fit in the trailer; mare got loose and galloped all over green acres).

Next cycle: no abnormalities, just the tight cervix. Bred on a 40+mm follicle, lavaged again 6hrs post-breeding, and gave oxytocin 3x daily for two days. Mare had ovulated by late the next day, very little fluid retained (yay for oxy). Checked again at 8 days, still looking good, started on Regumate. Day 15, the precious black dot. Day 18, no twins. Day 28, heartbeat. Day 50, still happily pregnant. I’ve kept her on Regumate all along…last year I had two mares slip between day 35-50, and my vet agreed that could be a critical time for my mare. She’s through that so far, but I figure I’ll keep her on Regumate until the bottle’s gone. I know it’s likely not doing much, but I suppose it can’t hurt. I haven’t checked her since day 50; we’re approaching 90 days now, and I wish she had a see-through door with oven light so I can watch the baby baking and make sure it’s still in there. :stuck_out_tongue:

I’ve managed TB broodmares for the last 5 years and been in some stressful situations trying to get high-dollar mares in foal to high-dollar stallions. But it’s still a lot different when it’s your OWN mare on the line!

#5

I have to admit, a bit confused by this myself. 29mm follicle, showing early heat pattern, would not have called for lutalyse. And breeding at 30-35mm follicles would be WAYYYY early for my mares. They normally ovulate day of or day after being in the high 40s, low 50s.

That said, I have no mares pregnant this year! So, Fingers very crossed for you!!!

#6

I am trying to get up to speed on this myself-having not bred for a few years.

I guess he read the FDA suggested parameters? “The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recently approved SucroMate Equine (deslorelin acetate) for inducing ovulation within 48 hours of treatment in mares that are in heat and have an ovarian follicle between 30 and 40 mm in diameter. Mares are treated once per heat cycle with an intramuscular injection in the neck, given 48 hours before desired ovulation.”

FWIW I have known two mares to get in foal bred 4-5 days before ovulating–not perfect, nail biting, but the job got done.

#7

I have bred more in the 45-50 mm follicle range with edema (with deslorelin) but 35 would have been too early for mine… I hope you had an ovulation OP!

Omare–what you quote is to bring them into ovulation at that size. This vet did the shot and the breeding at the same time by my reading of the OP. What I don’t get is the timing of the semen–maybe order it then, but I’m not understanding the insemination at that point? Of course, I have also known mares who seem to have missed the manual regarding deslorelin inducing ovulation. sigh

I am not a vet or a breeding expert–I am just trying to learn/understand, so I am completely open to clarification if I am wrong, btw.

I assume you are using fresh semen?

Question Re oxytocin: I have had different vets not use oxytocin, but that was decided after breeding when there was not a fluid issue. They did always ultrasound post-breeding to see if she actually ovulated. I don’t know that oxytocin has to be used every single time does it? It seems very popular on COTH to use it every time, I’ve noticed…or at least that has been my impression.

#8

My vet seems to use it every time, and also does a post breeding ovulation check.

#9

No advice, but good luck. My mare was also bred for the first time this year. Took three tries but then she took, she’s 90 days along and taking full advantage of the broodmare life. Crossing my fingers for ya :slight_smile:

#10

Guess I should have added more info :wink:

Originally I had planned to breed this mare in June. She had been ultra sounded then as well, and she seems to just produce smaller follicles. I ended up not sending her for a few reasons then. I hadn’t planned to breed after that and then came across the stallion we used. We realise it is a late breeding and definitely needed a little luck on our side… but I felt it was worth a shot.

Vet - Is very experienced and has a very good success rate. Nothing but rave reviews from other clients including the owner of one mare who was deemed to be “barren and impossible to get in foal” first try resulted in a pregnancy and a gorgeous filly. Same mare is back in foal this year.

I have to trust her experience here based on what she saw in june and what she saw this time. She felt everything else indicated she could be inseminated on the second visit, the mare was just producing smaller follicles.

I was using an out of province stallion this time around ( I know, I know , way to add more stress to breeding a maiden :wink: )
Vet decided to give the Lutalyse (CL was present) on the tuesday visit to help her along and felt based on what she could see/feel, mare would be very close for Friday, and she was correct, since the mare had three follicles, the 29mm having grown to 35mm by then. So she advised we could order it for then. Again - out of province stallion, so flights had to be booked for the semen etc…
So she also decided the Deslorelin would be appropriate to give on friday. I am not a vet so I’m trusting her gut on this one :wink:

Post breeding check was planned, unfortunately I had a family emergency and had to cancel with the vet. Mare is also not a huge fan of all of this work going on behind her and it was stressing her a little. Since we knew this would be one shot and I would obviously not try to rebreed her again, we decided we could wait the 15 days and just check for a pregnancy and leave the mare alone for the 2 weeks.

Ultimately, yes I do need to get a little lucky on this one. If she doesn’t catch I don’t think it will be because of one thing or another…

Poor mare was incredibly sucky last night… I think if she could have, she would’ve curled up in my lap and cuddled… normally she likes her space in her stall and cant be bothered unless I am in there with food!

appreciate the feedback and good thoughts!

#11

YOU PEOPLE ARE UNBELIEVABLE !

It is totally normal to give a little Lutalyse to help a mare along if the vet deems it necessary. It is totally normal to manipulate ovulation of a 35 mm follicle. This is the size we start breeding frozen with also.

We never use oxytocin unless we see a need. Haven’t used it on a mare in 10 years and have nearly 100% conception rates here every year.

Until you people have your arm in the rear of the mare , looking at the ultrasound and trying to make the decisions based on what you see…BE QUIET !

The only thing I see here out of the ordinary is breeding at the end of August. Good luck OP.

#12

good luck OP. I too bred for my first foal, using my 13 yo maiden. Cross fingers it all works out but she took on first try, using fresh, and at 50 day check all was well.

Here is hoping you have a positive outcome!

#13

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6524512]
YOU PEOPLE ARE UNBELIEVABLE !

It is totally normal to give a little Lutalyse to help a mare along if the vet deems it necessary. It is totally normal to manipulate ovulation of a 35 mm follicle. This is the size we start breeding frozen with also.

We never use oxytocin unless we see a need. Haven’t used it on a mare in 10 years and have nearly 100% conception rates here every year.

Until you people have your arm in the rear of the mare , looking at the ultrasound and trying to make the decisions based on what you see…BE QUIET !

The only thing I see here out of the ordinary is breeding at the end of August. Good luck OP.[/QUOTE]

Thank You Bayhawk - that was my understanding also regarding the Lutalyse and Deslorelin and why she used it. I feel a little bit more confident/hopeful :wink:

#14

[QUOTE=LivviesMom;6526343]
Thank You Bayhawk - that was my understanding also regarding the Lutalyse and Deslorelin and why she used it. I feel a little bit more confident/hopeful ;)[/QUOTE]

Welcome ! I hope it works for you…

#15

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6524512]
YOU PEOPLE ARE UNBELIEVABLE !

It is totally normal to give a little Lutalyse to help a mare along if the vet deems it necessary. It is totally normal to manipulate ovulation of a 35 mm follicle. This is the size we start breeding frozen with also.

We never use oxytocin unless we see a need. Haven’t used it on a mare in 10 years and have nearly 100% conception rates here every year.

Until you people have your arm in the rear of the mare , looking at the ultrasound and trying to make the decisions based on what you see…BE QUIET !

The only thing I see here out of the ordinary is breeding at the end of August. Good luck OP.[/QUOTE]

Bully for you for not using oxytocin and getting such high conception rates. I never used it either when my mares were young - but when they moved into their teens, I used it for every breeding - starting 8 hours post-insem. I didn’t particularly want to blow $700 of frozen semen to find out this was the year the older mares started to pool… thank you very much.

Including the syringe - it cost me 45 cents per shot. So… for $3.60 per cycle I contunued to have mostly FIRST CYCLE conception rates. WHen you are talking about equine reproduction topics - there is more than one path to success.

And here’s my personal experince with Deslorlin: the mare usuallly went on a 52-55. Tried to push it on a 36 with Deslorin. Lost the whole cycle, as on that particular mare it had no affect. Lots of folks I know use it with great success - but I won’t touch it again.

#16

Since I really am trying to learn here (I believe I pointed that out in my first post, and also that I am NOT a breeding expert)…and I didn’t say a word for or against using the Lutalyse, as I have only used it 1x…

I still have some questions that I hope are relevant to the OP and someone will answer.

Regarding the oxy–my mare was bred fresh in '09 without it and frozen in 2010 and was an older (mid teen) mare. The vet did ultrasound post-breeding and did check for fluid and said she was fine. Like I said, I had noticed on here it is very popular to use. What is the timeline for “pooling?” Wouldn’t the vet see fluid buildup when they did the post-ovulation check and be able to decide then if he/she should use it? Also, isn’t the fluid build-up more likely with frozen (or am I wrong in this understanding)? I guess I see the positives in just using it all the time if it doesn’t hurt anything, but are their cons besides the cost (which sounds very minimal)? I’ve always been the type to lean towards not doing something unless it is necessary…

Deslorelin–this is only my experience, but the vet used it the first time in the 30’s and she didn’t ovulate in time. Turns out she goes into the 50’s to ovulate. That said, my understanding was that my horse was odd and the vast majority of mares are much more receptive, as it was almost like she was immune. This was a big warmblood mare, however. Same thing happened to a friend’s mare as well. I think they found out she responds better to the other drug (forget the name). But again, my understanding is this is very odd…

#17

There are no cons to using Oxy unless you do it wrong. None. And it’s super cheap.

And YES a mare can pool fluid AFTER the post-insemination check. Mine did! She had no fluid at all on ultrasound when checked at 6 hours and 18-ish hours post-insemination, but when she was checked again at around 44 hours post-insemination (this check was done because she still hadn’t ovulated at her 18-hour check) she had fluid. This was a fit 12-yr old mare who had only had 1 foal prior. And the semen was fresh, not frozen.

So, in theory, your mare could look great on the US if checked 24 hours post-insemination, and then proceed to pool fluid afterwards anyway.

Oxy is extremely cheap insurance with no drawbacks. Why anyone would risk NOT using it is beyond me.

#18

What is the timeline for “pooling?”

What is the timeline for any inflammatory response… it depends on the individual.

Wouldn’t the vet see fluid buildup when they did the post-ovulation check and be able to decide then if he/she should use it?

I prefer to be in front of the 8 ball, not behind it. For me - it was a method of stopping a problem before it became a problem. This is not to say you can’t flush the mare if she has begun to pool, and manage to get a healthy environment for the conceptus to land…because you can. $3.60 of oxy trumps $40 for a uterine lavage, or more if she needs more than one.

There has also been some research that indicated that the oxtocin protocol can improve conception rates, even if post-breeding ultrasounds did not indicate an inappropriate inflammatory response. I’ll see if I can find it - or perhaps Kathy St. Martin can chime in if she is home from her ACL surgery.

#19

Two great articles on oxytocin protocol -
From Dr. Pycock:

http://www.pycock.co.uk/Italy3.htm

And from Kathy
http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/oxytocin.htm

From Kathy’s paper:

“Mares that are likely to benefit from the use of an oxytocin protocol such as one outlined above include those mares with known delayed uterine clearance problems, mares with uterine fluid presence pre- and/or post-breeding, older mares that may have uterine lymphatic issues, mares post-breeding with frozen semen, and - in our experience - some other “problem mares” that have defied pregnancy establishment for no apparent reason. It should be noted that we will use oxytocin prophylactically in mares that we consider may present breeding problems even in the absence of identified problems, and have seen good - if inexplicable - success. The treatment is cheap, easy and carries minimal risks.”

#20

I could care less about the oxytocin point. My vet is very good with the ultrasound and I did say “if deemed needed” . I breed frozen every year as well and haven’t needed oxytocin to this point. When I do , it will surely be used.

My whole problem with these posts were that posters were burning the vet on the stake when she has done absolutely nothing wrong.

Alot of theses same posters are always second guessing vet management for other folks , yet some of the same posters turn up every year with empty mares. They need to start sweeping their own porches before trying to sweep someone else’s.

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