Flying Change Hell Support Group

[Libby2563]

@CanteringCarrot

For a jumping horse (jumpers) and those only competing up to second level, or even lower level eventing, I suppose the change can be irrelevant and you never really have to develop a correct one. Perhaps you should, but if you don’t, it doesn’t really matter so much I suppose.

That’s kind of the situation with this horse, which is why I didn’t mind playing with the poles a little. He’s my eventer and no way in hell am I ever going to compete at Advanced, which is the first level at which you do flying changes in dressage. I’m teaching him changes for fun, to have something to work on over the winter, to broaden my own experience, and to use when jumping. They don’t come naturally to him AT ALL and he’s perfectly willing to cross-canter, so it’s been a challenge. I only have eyes on the ground once a week and sometimes (see photo collage above) there’s so much going on underneath me that it’s hard to tell whether they’re clean or what went wrong. Ah well, it’s all about the journey!

@IPEsq

I can’t say I’ve ever seen a horse change over a pole by changing the hind legs at that last sit stride, but here it happened for sure.

Too bad I have no idea how to replicate it! Pretty sure it was just luck that we finally got one good rep after many leaps. Add me to the list of people who would love to see video of someone accomplishing this on purpose and with n>1.

[J-Lu]

@Feathered_Feet

I can’t speak for the others, but I don’t see the mechanics working out for a clean change because if you’re cantering over the pole, most horses don’t jump into the air - they canter their front end over first, then their back end. For a change to happen over the pole, the front end (which gets the air time first) changes first, then the back end when it goes over the pole. Hence the change is by default front to back. I don’t see any way to get the back end to change at the same time as the front since, at any given time, they are doing different things. For there to be enough air time that the change happens clean, the front and hind legs have to be in the air together for long enough, which I don’t see over poles (the hind legs come over as the front legs are hurtling rapidly towards earth). That’s why I think a video (preferably one I can slow down) would help me see how I’m wrong

(Note I’m not demanding a video, since I’m sure the logistics might be difficult to work out with other trainers, someone else’s horse, etc. But if someone happened to find something similar online to share that would be helpful. )

Ahhh, thanks for explaining. You’re right. Yes, the horse will change in front first. Thanks for not demanding a video when a simple explanation suffices.

The point is to get the horse to associate the aids with the change.

Also, I’ll say yet again that this method can be used for horses who do not respond well to traditional aids for whatever reason. The idea is to find an “out of the box” way for them to associate the aids with changing their feet when typical training isn’t working for whatever reason.

[IPEsq]

Actually I didn’t watch video 2 and I started with video 3 first but he does swap behind first in video 1 as well, though the hind legs were closer together. While sometimes doing changes over a pole will make them more exuberant and rush the pole and things like that, it looks like for your horse it’s really helping you get the half halt done. It looks like he does have a natural clean change in there. How to communicate it to him without the pole in your case is the challenge, right?

[scislandsprite]

This thread is pretty eye opening! I had previously thought that cleaning up the skip changes were easier based off of my horse but definitely going to make sure I don’t accidentally teach skip changes to another horse down the line

[CanteringCarrot]

@IPEsq

Actually I didn’t watch video 2 and I started with video 3 first but he does swap behind first in video 1 as well, though the hind legs were closer together. While sometimes doing changes over a pole will make them more exuberant and rush the pole and things like that, it looks like for your horse it’s really helping you get the half halt done. It looks like he does have a natural clean change in there. How to communicate it to him without the pole in your case is the challenge, right?

I don’t consider that a true change behind though, but still not terrible by any means.

I would be curious to know how it goes with the changes sans pole. It might actually be fine, and every horse can learn this a bit different.

Still scarred for life about the pole thing though and I think it would be mt very very very last resort. I am not saying it isn’t or won’t work for the horse and rider in the video though. Just my opinion shaped by my personal experience.

[CanteringCarrot]

@J-Lu

@Feathered_Feet

I can’t speak for the others, but I don’t see the mechanics working out for a clean change because if you’re cantering over the pole, most horses don’t jump into the air - they canter their front end over first, then their back end. For a change to happen over the pole, the front end (which gets the air time first) changes first, then the back end when it goes over the pole. Hence the change is by default front to back. I don’t see any way to get the back end to change at the same time as the front since, at any given time, they are doing different things. For there to be enough air time that the change happens clean, the front and hind legs have to be in the air together for long enough, which I don’t see over poles (the hind legs come over as the front legs are hurtling rapidly towards earth). That’s why I think a video (preferably one I can slow down) would help me see how I’m wrong

(Note I’m not demanding a video, since I’m sure the logistics might be difficult to work out with other trainers, someone else’s horse, etc. But if someone happened to find something similar online to share that would be helpful. )

Ahhh, thanks for explaining. You’re right. Yes, the horse will change in front first. Thanks for not demanding a video when a simple explanation suffices.

The point is to get the horse to associate the aids with the change.

Also, I’ll say yet again that this method can be used for horses who do not respond well to traditional aids for whatever reason. The idea is to find an “out of the box” way for them to associate the aids with changing their feet when typical training isn’t working for whatever reason.

I am a bit confused now. So in this post you’re saying the horse will change in front first, but you said your horses changes are clean…so he does change in front first…or not?

If he changes cleanly from the hind end, most of us, if not all, who questioned it were merely wondering how this was happening. Or if you had a particular strategy/method. Visualization via video helps, but if you couldn’t provide one, then fair enough, people just asked in an effort to understand. However, Libby was kind enough to post a few. I had asked you for an explanation on your pole method and just got a “BTW my horse doesn’t get late changes over a pole. So there’s that.”

I definitely think sometimes you do have to think out of the box, and I might be tempted to use a pole if literally everything else failed and the situation was looking hopeless, that’s just my personal threshold though. If it works for some, then hey, it works. Many of us are just curious or trying to learn more.

[endlessclimb]

I shall repeat.

Some people do not know what a clean change is.

[Bluey]

@endlessclimb

I shall repeat.

Some people do not know what a clean change is.

No shame in that, is how we learn and keep learning.

Over half a century ago, horse shows in the western disciplines started.
There were soon some “reining” classes and judges that didn’t really know reining but were good at so much else were judging those also.

Once one judge asked us privately, you train race horses, please explain to me what leads are?
Yep, a judge was judging where horses were supposed to be on one or another lead and he didn’t know what leads are?

Until about a couple dozen years, reining now more sophisticated and judging seminars and certification getting better and better, there were still judges that didn’t know you were supposed to have flying changes that were even, clean and not rushed.
Today I think judges have the technical parts down pat, but watching the judging in reining, not so sure, as fuzzy changes are not always penalized as they should.

We have come a long way, but even professionals some times have not quite learned everything.
Technical aspects of leads, something that is not subjective, it either is correct or not, seems to be one area that is hard for some to get an educated eye, until the light comes on and then the big ah, that is what we are looking for! happens.

Why is that hard as a trainer and rider?
Because when we are on the horse we can’t see what the horse’s legs do, what all happens under there is why you need to have eyes on the ground regularly and be those eyes for others, how you learn more.

Thank you to the poster than made those videos with that awesome horse, where we could see what those legs were doing in such fine detail.
One point was made clear there, changes over poles are inconsistent in how they happen, which would make using a pole to teach them questionable.
I learned much just watching those videos.

[endlessclimb]

When one insists that their horse gets clean changes over a pole, yet later states “oh yeah, front to back”… Sure a pole might have some use somewhere along the line, but it isn’t a tool to teach clean changes.

And agreed on the videos, thanks Libby!

[cnm161]

A brief thought on the subject of the value or benefit of a pole in teaching changes:
Can externalize the aids/ask, which is very useful for horses that are perhaps not naturals at offering the change.

A brief thought on the pitfalls of a pole in teaching changes:
Enhanced risk of porpoise; risk of disunited changes if not balanced with other work to keep the hind end together with the front.

2 weeks into December and I am armed with: new exercises, cooler weather (and conversely hotter horse), renewed vigor and purpose, and a significantly geared-up canter. Results: L to R consistently clean and uphill; R to L inconsistently clean OR uphill with clear tradeoffs.

It’s a journey.

[Libby2563]

@cnm161

A brief thought on the subject of the value or benefit of a pole in teaching changes:
Can externalize the aids/ask, which is very useful for horses that are perhaps not naturals at offering the change.

Yes, I think it’s tempting to try the pole if you have a horse who just isn’t understanding the aids. You can use the external disruption in the stride to associate the aids with the change, if that makes sense. Since my horse knows how to change leads over a jump, I asked him to change over the pole in a similar way. If I wanted to keep working on it that way I could transition to more dressage-y aids I guess.

[Jealoushe]

Who is the Silver Medalist? I’m so confused haha

[Libby2563]

Tried a new approach in my lesson last night. My coach had me do a many-looped serpentine-like thing with changes every time we crossed the centerline. The loops didn’t extend the full width of the arena, and she had me angle back before changing direction. Hard to explain so here’s a visual:

She had me really exaggerate the outside aid through each turn, then switch to new outside leg and rein to ask for the change. The new pattern and frequent changes of direction kept my horse from anticipating as much. I think the tight turns also kept me riding the hind end more actively. Though there was some excitement, most of the changes were clean. Just another tool in the kit!

For context, my guy is a TB who is not naturally uphill, tough to get over the back, very smart, and really keen to please. Changes don’t come naturally for him and when he gets tense and starts anticipating, his usual response is to leap up into the air with the front end. The hind end often gets forgotten in all this, which is kind of par for the course with him. He spent the first 9 years of his life happily pulling himself along with the front end in his flatwork, so I’ve spent the 2.5 years I’ve owned him (minus much time for both of our injuries) working on engaging and carrying with the hind end. It’s not how he’s built though and in moments of excitement he regresses.

[IPEsq]

@CanteringCarrot

@IPEsq

Actually I didn’t watch video 2 and I started with video 3 first but he does swap behind first in video 1 as well, though the hind legs were closer together. While sometimes doing changes over a pole will make them more exuberant and rush the pole and things like that, it looks like for your horse it’s really helping you get the half halt done. It looks like he does have a natural clean change in there. How to communicate it to him without the pole in your case is the challenge, right?

I don’t consider that a true change behind though, but still not terrible by any means.

No, but I would still call that a very good attempt to change the hind legs with the front, which is before the hind legs go over the pole. Went back and watched video 2 - That one is more of a bunny hop behind before the pole. He does think about switching them but they are the closest together. However, I think I would take that mistake over the more common technique using a pole where horse changes behind only in the air after front end has landed on the other side.

[CanteringCarrot]

@IPEsq

@CanteringCarrot

@IPEsq

Actually I didn’t watch video 2 and I started with video 3 first but he does swap behind first in video 1 as well, though the hind legs were closer together. While sometimes doing changes over a pole will make them more exuberant and rush the pole and things like that, it looks like for your horse it’s really helping you get the half halt done. It looks like he does have a natural clean change in there. How to communicate it to him without the pole in your case is the challenge, right?

I don’t consider that a true change behind though, but still not terrible by any means.

No, but I would still call that a very good attempt to change the hind legs with the front, which is before the hind legs go over the pole. Went back and watched video 2 - That one is more of a bunny hop behind before the pole. He does think about switching them but they are the closest together. However, I think I would take that mistake over the more common technique using a pole where horse changes behind only in the air after front end has landed on the other side.

Yep, I agree.

[J-Lu]

Not sure why you’re responding since I apparently don’t know what a flying change is. Never ridden or trained them ever. I’m obviously such a loser and thanks for changing the nature of this thread.

The Silver Medalist figures into this thread upstream. And on another thread.

[CanteringCarrot]

@J-Lu

Not sure why you’re responding since I apparently don’t know what a flying change is. Never ridden or trained them ever. I’m obviously such a loser and thanks for changing the nature of this thread.

The Silver Medalist figures into this thread upstream. And on another thread.

I’m sorry that you feel that way. I really was looking for constructive conversation and had genuine questions stemming from curiosity over a few things you said. I was not doubting your abilities really, but just wanted to know more about your method since you had said you had gotten clean and not late changes over a pole. It hasn’t been my experience that this is common, so naturally I was intrigued. If you’re not open for discussion on that particular matter, then fine.

@Jealoushe I think she just introduced this individual as “Silver Medalist” to show she has some form of credentials and is a competent rider. I could be wrong, but that’s just the vibe I got. No idea who or what silver medal.

[Jealoushe]

@J-Lu

Not sure why you’re responding since I apparently don’t know what a flying change is. Never ridden or trained them ever. I’m obviously such a loser and thanks for changing the nature of this thread.

The Silver Medalist figures into this thread upstream. And on another thread.

???

Sorry I asked about the Silver medalist?

I just wanted to know if this a legit Silver medalist like Olympics?

[Feathered_Feet]

@Jealoushe

I just wanted to know if this a legit Silver medalist like Olympics?

Oh, I think the rest of us assumed it was the USDF medals program kind of silver medalist. Not Olympics. I guess I could be wrong but I’d be surprised if an Olympic silver medalist went to a vaquero style trainer to get help with changes (not that there’s anything inherently wrong with that). But I suppose anything’s possible

[Jealoushe]

ok that makes sense hahaha just find that a bizarre way to refer to someone