flying / running W?

[Risk-Averse_Rider]

Mr. RAR & I were at a fundraiser last night at a place that’s I guess some sort of dude ranch. They have a pumpkin patch in October, and they have horses for trail rides. They do cookouts, hay rides, etc.

We were transported from the parking lot to the area where the fundraiser was held on big flatbed wagons drawn by mules (and we came back behind a team of drafts - maybe Belgians, but it was dark by then).

I was chatting with one of the mule handlers before we took off, admiring the big boys (half Belgian mules - loffly big guys) and noticed that the mule on the right had thick cotton ropes around his front ankles. The ropes ran up through a ring on some part of the harness that no doubt all of you would recognize, but was a mystery to me, then continued back towards the driver.

I asked about them, and the woman said they were called “flying w”, and that they served as an emergency brake. All the mules/horses were trained to halt as soon as they felt tension on the rope.

After I got home, I Googled “flying w” and found some less than favorable references.

So I thought I’d come here & see what y’all thought about them. I can see that they could be abused, but are they ever justified & used humanely? These ropes were clean (well, as clean as something wrapped around a horse’s leg in the desert can be - but not crusty or rough) and didn’t appear to be either too tight or too loose.

[Thomas_1]

In my opinion they’re best displayed on a wall as an example of what used to happen in the old days when horses were abused by folks who knew no better.

In the driving world of real horsemen Running W’s have always been the tool of the incompetent and cruel. They’re rough, absusive and barbaric.

There’s quite a bit about them and their use on this post (particularly post 42 and 47):

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5048075&highlight=running#post5048075

[gothedistance]

So I thought I’d come here & see what y’all thought about them.
Wow, RAR. Had I seen those I would have flat out refused to get into the wagon.

The fact that they even had them on an animal (specifically only the one mule - which is a big honking clue in itself!) that was being used to transport people/guests is flipping scary. Means the mule had bolted before (perhaps numerous times) and was hard (if not impossible) to stop. Worse yet is for whatever reason (economics, lack of another mule) they had still wanted/needed/had to use the creature.

Geez. That was a liability issue just itching to happen.

I can see that they could be abused, but are they ever justified & used humanely?
I suppose you could lump this with the cowboy technique of throwing down a bronc until it gave up. It isn’t justified in this day and age of litigation and surplus of horses. It also isn’t humane, no matter how clean and tidy the ropes were. Did you see any knee pads on the mule? If not, definitely not humane because if the mule started to bolt and that running W was employed, the mule’s front legs would be jerked out from underneath it, it would come crashing down directly on the knee joints, and then possibly onto the neck and head, possibly doing a summersault – in harness that would be very bad. Lots of tangled harness, scared people, etc.

Gives me the willies just thinking about it. <shudder!>

[Sportpony]

My grandfather talked about using them but then he was working horses in the late 1800s/ early 1900s when the biggest concern was keeping the trainer/teamster uninjured and getting the horses working. They had 4 and 5 year old unhandled draft horses to get into harness and working, often in a short amount of time and had to remain uninjured themselves to get the work done.

I’ve only seen a running-W used once, by a neighbor who was a contemporary of my grandfather, when I was about 10 years old. The horse didn’t get hurt and it seemed to me at the time that the horse picked up “whoa” very quickly. I must have said something about why the trainer was doing it and my father told me about seeing a teamster getting dragged to death by a team when he was working on a road crew in western Montana in the 30s when they were still using draft horses. A green horse in the team spooked, the trace chain whipped around his leg and when the green horse ran, the other horse went with him. Nobody with a saddle horse, so they couldn’t get them stopped.

My Dad said that if he’d had a running-W on the green horse, he could have stopped him. He said the first thing you wanted to teach a green work horse was what “whoa” meant … and they needed to stop and not move the instant they heard it.

I think in situations where people had to work with less than fully trained horses and serious injuries were life-threatening, people did what they felt they had to do to keep themselves safe. I don’t believe they did it to abuse the animals they were working with, I think things like this were considered safety measures.

[Sportpony]

@gothedistance;5136318

It also isn’t humane, no matter how clean and tidy the ropes were. Did you see any knee pads on the mule? If not, definitely not humane because if the mule started to bolt and that running W was employed, the mule’s front legs would be jerked out from underneath it, it would come crashing down directly on the knee joints, and then possibly onto the neck and head, possibly doing a summersault – in harness that would be very bad. Lots of tangled harness, scared people, etc.

Actually, according to my grandfather, it was rarely used/needed once the horse was working. He said his preference was to start a green horse in a plowed field, where there was soft ground and it was used to enforce “whoa”. He said that once the horse learned his feet would get taken out from under him unless he stopped, it was a “safety measure” … as in the teamster that was dragged to death by his team … rather than something that was often needed. He also said, too, that he had one horse once that would never run if he had a running-W on … and would always look for the slightest opportunity if you left it off. So again, more a safety measure than anything else.

[Risk-Averse_Rider]

[QUOTE=gothedistance;5136318]
The fact that they even had them on an animal (specifically only the one mule - which is a big honking clue in itself!) that was being used to transport people/guests is flipping scary. Means the mule had bolted before (perhaps numerous times) and was hard (if not impossible) to stop. Worse yet is for whatever reason (economics, lack of another mule) they had still wanted/needed/had to use the creature.[/QUOTE]I don’t follow your logic that having the flying-w in place meant that this particular mule had bolted before - once or multiple times.

Each team had a flying-w on one of the animals. As a safety precaution.

And frankly, knowing that the calmest, quietest of equines is still a flight animal, I can see their point.

Given the choice of injuring a bunch of people or taking an animal to its knees, I know what my choice would be.

I knew when I posted this that it going to be rather like asking, “So - what do y’all think about Pat Parelli?”

But I have the answer that I suspected I would get - that this is not a common practice these days.

Thanks to all who responded.

[CHT]

How would it work on just one animal? I am thinking it is more likely that they had one green mule/horse per team rather than it is a standard emergency break. I just can’t think that dropping one part of the team if the entire team went to bolt would be a very good braking system.

I am not sure i would judge based on seeing the running w unless the horses also showed signs of skinned/lumpy knees. It could simply be their way of feeling as safe as possible when introducing new mules/horses to their job.

[LostFarmer]

I have never used one but I saw one in action one time on a rank mule that had learned to run. He learned whoa quick.

I think it was more like Sporty said. When you have work to do and unbroke horses to do it with you do what needs done. My grandfather talked about breaking the colts (4 and 5 year old geldings that hadn’t seen man since they were cut.) every spring. They had a few mares that were to foal and the colts to get broke. They started a new batch every spring to plant the crops and then put up the hay. The colts were then sold off in the fall as broke and the new set started the next spring. They usually started 3 to 5 a year and had the 4 to 6 mares to work with them. The few horses they sold were the cash money. They would let them get big enough to go to work before they messed with them much.

In today’s world it is different. Few of us outside the Amish work horses for reasons other that pleasure. We can take a year to bring a horse along. We can ground drive for a month. It is different times with different means and therefor different methods.

[hitchinmygetalong]

The use of the Running W on those teams could VERY well be a direct result of the tragic runaway accident earlier this year in Iowa.

[gothedistance]

@Risk-Averse Rider;5136731

I don’t follow your logic that having the flying-w in place meant that this particular mule had bolted before - once or multiple times.

Each team had a flying-w on one of the animals. As a safety precaution.

And frankly, knowing that the calmest, quietest of equines is still a flight animal, I can see their point.

I thought you only saw the one pair? Didn’t know this outfit had a running W on one of each of every conveyance.

Wow. Simply…wow.

If they were going to be that afraid something super bad would happen to use such a drastic means as rigging a trip line (which is what this is) even as a “preventive” measure …well, then they should just ditch the mules and have cute little antique tractors pull the wagons.

JMHO.

There are less violent methods of stopping a runaway. A net over the nose that shuts off the wind would be preferable, less noticeable, and less apt to cause an animal to be flipped over or risk knees/legs/bones/ animals destroyed in the tripping process.

[Risk-Averse_Rider]

gothedistance - sorry for not being clear.

The woman I asked about the ropes said they put one on every team. And if they had 2 greenish horses/mules, they might put them on both.

She stressed that they have been “TRAINED” to stop when the rope is pulled. The picture she painted was that rope caused the horse/mule to lift his foot, signaling him to stop.

Kind of like you pick up a horse’s foot to keep him from moving around when the vet’s working on another foot.

In retrospect, imagining a bolting situation, I’m thinking that’s not terribly likely

I didn’t have my camera, so I don’t have any good photos of the device. Mr. RAR did catch Junior & Friendly from the front, and you can see the white rope tied to something on the wagon.

Nice guys, were Mr. Junior & Mr. Friendly.

[lisae]

I’m not saying a word. I got soundly flamed for bringing up the topic on that other thread! I don’t think anyone’s responded to me since… :o

[Thomas_1]

[QUOTE=Risk-Averse Rider;5136731]
I don’t follow your logic that having the flying-w in place meant that this particular mule had bolted before - once or multiple times.

Each team had a flying-w on one of the animals. As a safety precaution.

And frankly, knowing that the calmest, quietest of equines is still a flight animal, I can see their point.

Given the choice of injuring a bunch of people or taking an animal to its knees, I know what my choice would be.

I knew when I posted this that it going to be rather like asking, “So - what do y’all think about Pat Parelli?”

But I have the answer that I suspected I would get - that this is not a common practice these days.

Thanks to all who responded. [/QUOTE] So you came here to ask drivers about what you saw because you hadn’t a clue what it even was.

Yet now you’ve got an opinion on what you would choose to do as a preference and what tack you would choose to use even though you’ve been told by DRIVERS that it’s rough and abusive and ineffective !

Goodness knows why they had a Running W on just one horse in a team.

There’s no logic to it and it’s not what you do.

I’m thinking it’s purely born from ignorance and perhaps they really don’t mind if they have a runaway just dropping one mule and letting it get dragged by the rest!

Or if they’re really lucky it will be the one that started the bolt in the first place that they drop and then they need never worry about it again Duhhhh.

So now you’re telling us it was on the green horse/s in the team and when it’s pulled the horse is trained to stop! Yeh right it sure will stop. It will drop it!

And to do all this at a fundraising event with the public about.

I presume it wasn’t for a “mule welfare” !

Saw the photo. Interesting harness!!! As in I wouldn;'t want anything to do with it!

[sublimequine]

Could someone just explain in simple terms what a “flying w” is, and how it works? Doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree with it’s use or anything, I’d just love an explanation! I don’t drive, I’m just curious as I’ve never heard of it.

[horsegeeks]

I’ve seen them put on horses and held my breath each time in fear that the horse would come crashing down. When they were on the horses were worked in soft ground to avoid possible injury to the horse.

I found this description on another forum. … much better than I would have come up with myself

"what they are in simple terms, a surcingle, then cuffs that go around both front fetlocks. A rope is attached to a lower ring on the right side, ran through a ring on the right fetlock, up through a ring on surcingle between front legs, down through ring on the left fetlock, up through lower ring on the left side and to a second handler. the rope forms a “W” which is how it got it’s name. the running part comes, because as soon as the front feet are off the ground the person can pull the rope, which basically pulls the front feet right to the horse’s belly and drops them to the ground. "

[Cielo_Azure]

Lets write about Mr. Junior & Mr. Friendly
NO BLINKERS!!!
SNAFFLE BITS WITHOUT LEVERAGE!!!
NO HELMETS!!!
BUT A RUNNING W!!!
STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES!!!
Before rigging up deathtraps for their mules, maybe they might consider a lesson in proper harness for public driving!!!

Yes, on another forum -where ignorance rules because ole farmers and ole ways are best (“Hill Billy Past” -or it is called something like that), there was a bunch of mule men writing of how they wouldn’t drive away from home without their running W and how unsafe driving is without one. And you canbet your bottom dollar that each of these men use a snaffle (cause taht what mule people use). Well…All I can say is that I am surrounded by such people and ignorance rules in their hearts and minds.

I went to the local draft and mule day/wagon train recently. It was the most unsafe draft horse and mule train and show I have EVER been to. And I have participated in way more than I can count on two hands. If these people would put a bit more time into training and learning to harness -their rigs and mules would be a lot more safe. These are people who will insist they have driven their whole lives and that their daddy taught them and heck! It is even daddy’s ole harness -used to use it on a Belgium but he died nigh 40 years ago -fits the 14 hand mule just fine though! These mule groups around here, where little kids are running between horses and wagons, dogs are running around and people are drinking freely. Radios are blaring from wagons and B-B-Que is cooking at the RV. With people under foot everywhere.

Around here I saw…britchen down to the hocks and always too long, the pole or tongue too long and just off the ground with a big old chain for a pole strap -five foot long was typical for each mule, there was old rope for a pole strap, 15 foot wagons with 15 foot poles -without cut under participating in arena classes -where rigs were jamming up against each because their turning radius was too large, these huge rigs had little, bitty mules, collars six inches too big, snaffles on everything, dry and cracked leather -nothing cleaned in years. Lots and lots of drinking.

It is no wonder they are scared of runaways and need gimmicks!

I don’t mean to paint everyone who drives mules with the same brush but I had a good teamster once tell me, that if you value your horse don’t sell him to a mule person! Too many of them don’t educate themselves, don’t train, and use bully methods to force their mules into submission. Sure, there are good mulemen around - but around here, in the South? few and far between.

When people are driving with a snaffle bit, don’t use blinders, don’t use helmets and then they lecture on how running Ws are a safety tool and they wouldn’t leave home without one -WHOA!!! Run, don’t walk as fast as you can!

[goodhors]

Bits on the mules are not snaffles, they are curb designed bits. The facing left side mule has a 3-ring sliding mouthpiece bit. Kind of a gag effect if no curb strap is used or gag and curb pressure with a curb strap on. The right side facing mule has a curb bit also, appears to have a curved shank, with swivel sides, in a western bit style. Not real clear like the other mule’s bit side.

Rein attachment on both mules is below the side of mouth, not ring snaffles. Headstall attachement is above the mouthpieces. Definately curb bits and they do appear to have leather ended curb straps attached.

[gothedistance]

[QUOTE=Risk-Averse Rider;5137515]
gothedistance - sorry for not being clear.

The woman I asked about the ropes said they put one on every team. And if they had 2 greenish horses/mules, they might put them on both.

She stressed that they have been “TRAINED” to stop when the rope is pulled. The picture she painted was that rope caused the horse/mule to lift his foot, signaling him to stop. Kind of like you pick up a horse’s foot to keep him from moving around when the vet’s working on another foot. In retrospect, imagining a bolting situation, I’m thinking that’s not terribly likely I didn’t have my camera, so I don’t have any good photos of the device. Mr. RAR did catch Junior & Friendly from the front, and you can see the white rope tied to something on the wagon. Nice guys, were Mr. Junior & Mr. Friendly.[/QUOTE]

She had the rope tied to the rein rail??? The rein rail!!! OMG. :eek::eek: Those are held into the dash with only two small bolts - very easy to yank off with enough umph.

RAR - I am now totally drop-jawed at the whole shebang. LOL!!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

OK. Back under control. Please don’t apologize - I think you’ve done a marvelous job at trying to describe this unusual method of emergency breaks, and thanks a billion for the photo. Guess Mr. Junior and Mr. Friendly are more than happy in their public jobs, and no wonder they are smiling for the camera. They are little bothered by the rope because (frankly) the way the whole thing is set up the driver hasn’t a ghost chance in heaven to employ that rope anyway - not with it tied to the rail. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

OK. No more laughing.

Don’t ya just love the old West. I do!!!

PS - How is the hunting going?

[gothedistance]

[QUOTE=Risk-Averse Rider;5137515]
gothedistance - sorry for not being clear.

The woman I asked about the ropes said they put one on every team. And if they had 2 greenish horses/mules, they might put them on both.

She stressed that they have been “TRAINED” to stop when the rope is pulled. The picture she painted was that rope caused the horse/mule to lift his foot, signaling him to stop.

Kind of like you pick up a horse’s foot to keep him from moving around when the vet’s working on another foot.

In retrospect, imagining a bolting situation, I’m thinking that’s not terribly likely

I didn’t have my camera, so I don’t have any good photos of the device. Mr. RAR did catch Junior & Friendly from the front, and you can see the white rope tied to something on the wagon.

Nice guys, were Mr. Junior & Mr. Friendly.[/QUOTE]

Hey, no need to apologize. Thanks for the photo - it really explained a lot more. I was surprised to find the rope tied to that bar? lever(? brake pull??) on the dash - whatever that sticking-up thing is. (sorry about the preposition ending sentence) I don’t know enough about farm wagons – sadly that is the one gaping hole in my long resume of carriage education. :lol::lol::lol: If it is a brake, I could see (sorta, but sorta not, too) how if they pulled the brake they would get a twofer. <narrowing eyes and thinking very deep and very hard about that one, but not finding much, if any, value in that set-up whatsoever.>

But…if it is just a dashboard decoration…well, I would honestly doubt whether the rope would do a spit’s worth of good in a pinch. It needs to be held in a hand to be used. Tied up it is no good at all. Either way that bar/lever is held in with one bolt (probably) on a wooden dash - not the safest option. Too easily broken, possibly shattering the dash, too, if extreme push comes to extreme shove. Then you’ve lost both your brakes (if that is one) and your rope, bouncing on the ground behind the heels of your mules. <widening eyes as I think about this. Wow. My brain is actually starting to hurt trying to fit this all in. But it is interesting!>

Couldn’t quite tell, but I assume the rope had to have enough slack to allow the mules to walk, yet not enough to let them jog? Is that right, or did they jog to and fro the event from what you remember?

On a side note – those white haired markings on the mule’s face really jumped out at me. Rough handling produces those kind of white markings - maybe past evidence of a tight tiedown or super tight noseband that was employed to either tie down the head, or keep it from stargazing (one of the positions a bolter will do first is throw up the head as high as it can). That sure is a wink-wink nudge-nudge to me as to why he was the one “honored” for the ankle rope. :winkgrin::yes: Then again, maybe he was just being a mule - ie: “stubborn to the point of a skinner’s curses and tears”. But gotta admit - both Jr and Friendly sure do look both adorable and sweet.

I’m guessing hitch may have hit the nail on the head when he suggested that the rope may well be the mitigation the outfit’s insurance provider wanted in lieu of the recent runaway wreck at that parade. However, the way they have it set up (tied up when it absolutely must be hand held) means it really is just a passing nod to the safety demands. It certainly isn’t something they will be able to use, or get to in time if things go from good to bad in a microsecond.

Again, just my humble <learned> opinion.

[Stormgsd]

I have seen horses feet pulled right out from under them on a regular basis in Saddle Seat training and I don’t like it one bit:no: