Food for thoughts No Judges No Competitions

[freestyle2music]

I just picked this up from another BB, but the same kind of problems are also starting over here in Europe.

“The rot has set in - no judges = no comps”

Well, it seems that the judge-bashing that is going on everywhere is having its effect. Our local club which holds 3-4 dressage days per year has cancelled its first one because they couldn’t get enough judges. They would normally be expecting around 200 entries for the day so it would be a profitable day if they could run it but no judges means no comp. Another club down the Coast is also looking at cutting back on the classes it offers because they can’t get enough judges either.

I know I resigned as a judge candidate because I didn’t like the things people were writing about judges, and there is certainly no financial gain to be had for the grief ($60-70 for half a day) so I quit to concentrate on my own riding and competing. I guess it’ll just be riding now.

[CLB15]

Thats unfortunate. If a judge doesn’t do the job for the money, then they must do it to guide competitors in a sport that they’re passionate about, right? But because of the complaints that people have about individuals in the “judging world”, you quit instead of working to do a better job yourself and encouraging your peers to do the same? Umm, wouldn’t that just leave the poor representatives left in the “pool” of available judges? And if a judge quits to pursue their own riding and competitive careers, who will be judging their rides?

(Done venting now! ;-D)

[JRG]

“if a judge quits to pursue their own riding and competitive careers, who will be judging their rides?”

Very valid point. I have often wondered how the balance works between the two. I would like to be a TD but I am showing. So all the ones I would be able to work…I want to show.

As for the OP, I think it is only natural that when the “push back” happens rather then people thinking lets change it usually goes the opposite direction, recoil. People are reluctant to change, and it is easy to bash people without putting out an alternative idea.

I think if we as members of the sport keep throwing out ideas and how to impliment them, we may get something that sticks. In addition, growing the learners pool is very important.

Europe has been the cornerstone for dressage so it is only natural that the cycle is changing, it just so happens to coenside with the changes happening on a very young continent at the same time (North America).

[ridgeback]

They might want to pay the judges more. Even at small hunter/jumper shows b and c circut judges get several hundred dollars to judge.

[canyonoak]

I have never ever ever met a dressage judge who was offered a lot of rides to judge who turned down that offer.

Ever.

Never,ever.

Now–not talking about the “O’s” , who can set their schedule for years…and not talking about the special ones, like Uwe Mechlem, who is always in demand somewhere and can choose where he wants to be.

Just…dressage judges.

If the competition wanted a dressage judge for 200 rides, I can guarantee they could fine one.

Judges choose to judge for a lot more reasons than money.

[freestyle2music]

But Oakie I notice that since the introduction of the Internet there is 1000 times more bashing of judges going on. And with bashing I don’t mean starting a fruitfull discussion with the judges, but really using dirty language drected to specific judges.

Today I visited the Dutch National Indoor Championships and had a interesting conversation with Johan Hinneman (btw he sends you his greetings) about several things going on in the dressageworld today. In the middle of our conversation a hotshot from the Royal Dutch Equestrian Federation joined us and asked JH what he tought about the judging. He answered “try to tell the judges in Holland that they can’t take the high marks with them back home again” . And i really think that this is the way to handle problems in judging, not taking a single and individual case into consideration but the whole concept.

[Fixerupper]

The sport is in transition again. It has changed drastically in the last 20 years (if you don’t think so, google up some videos of what was winning then and now). It is just that this time the changes are coming hard and fast and publicly.
I, for one, agree with the folks who believe that the sport was going in the wrong direction, so I am pleased to see the ‘time out’ being taken to re-assess and find a new direction. If I passionately believed that where it has been going was the right way - I’d be pissed off too!
What’s more, the judges, at all levels, currently no longer have a clear standard of what is to be considered the best.
It will be an interesting year…eggs have been broken…omlettes will be made…

[freestyle2music]

[QUOTE=Fixerupper;3947232]
The sport is in transition again. It has changed drastically in the last 20 years (if you don’t think so, google up some videos of what was winning then and now). It is just that this time the changes are coming hard and fast and publicly.
I, for one, agree with the folks who believe that the sport was going in the wrong direction, so I am pleased to see the ‘time out’ being taken to re-assess and find a new direction. If I passionately believed that where it has been going was the right way - I’d be pissed off too!
What’s more, the judges, at all levels, currently no longer have a clear standard of what is to be considered the best.
It will be an interesting year…eggs have been broken…omlettes will be made…[/QUOTE]

Which wrong directions

[Fixerupper]

That judges are not answerable to anyone…
That flash trumps correctness…
That ‘politics’ in judging is acceptable
That it doesn’t matter what the horse is actually doing as long as it is exciting

:lol:

[CatOnLap]

better question, look forward- what direction should we be heading?

It will be an interesting year…eggs have been broken…omlettes will be made…and hungry people will eat again?

[freestyle2music]

[QUOTE=Fixerupper;3947292]
That judges are not answerable to anyone…
That flash trumps correctness…
That ‘politics’ in judging is acceptable
That it doesn’t matter what the horse is actually doing as long as it is exciting

:lol:[/QUOTE]

Absolute nonsens, I am talking about lower levels where correctness rules above flash. Flashy movements don’t score at these levels, at least not over here.

@ CatonLap

Let’s first solve the problem that a perfect walk should score a 10 at every level, a perfect trot to canter transition should score a 10 at every level. Toooooooooooooooo much judges don’t have the 8, 9 and 10 scores in their handbags when it comes don’t to the lower classes.

Theo

[sm1]

@freestyle2music;3947310

Absolute nonsens, I am talking about lower levels where correctness rules above flash.

Theo, you’re making a joke, right? Judges judge what the scorecard asks them to judge, often it is expression in gaits that is rewarded above correctness or purity of gaits – no matter what level. I don’t know how you can even type your comment with a straight face, you must be making a joke…

“Flash” is in over substance, this is the era for it, regardless of level. If you want different results, change what the judges are actually judging. This of course is what Haya is up to in demanding the old dressage committee resign and then restructuring a new one.

If correctness were in over flash and political lobbying, you’d see a heck of a lot more Iberians leading the pack.

[Fixerupper]

@freestyle2music;3947310

Toooooooooooooooo much judges don’t have the 8, 9 and 10 scores in their handbags when it comes don’t to the lower classes. Theo

What?..isn’t that what I said?

[freestyle2music]

Forget it :

This BB more and more starts looking like a kindergarten.

I said what I said and don’t try to bend or twist my words.

[sm1]

hmmm… kindergarten is a german word. I can see why you have a problem with the entire german school concept. Meanwhile, you were directly quoted – no twisting of words.

[Mike_Matson]

Theo, not to worry. The CS judge machine is being developed and should be out shortly.

[Surviving_the_Dramas]

[QUOTE=freestyle2music;3947310]

Let’s first solve the problem that a perfect walk should score a 10 at every level, a perfect trot to canter transition should score a 10 at every level. Toooooooooooooooo much judges don’t have the 8, 9 and 10 scores in their handbags when it comes don’t to the lower classes.

Theo[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with this statement. Judges are too scared to use the full scale of marks. I would rather get 7’s and 4’s on my score sheet than a whole heap of 6’s! A ‘6 sheet’ as I call them usually tells me nothing. I would rather know clearly what the judge liked/disliked and work from there.

However, I will agree with SM. Judges here are rewarding flash over correctness here. Someone I spoke to at Nationals last weekend made a comment that those “super flash” (usually imports or imported semen (De Niro, Riverman etc) horses trot into the arena on an 8 no maatter what the frame, skipping of training scale etc, and have to throw away marks by doing something stupid, whereas the not so flash horses who are correctly forward, moving as best they can, perfect in the contact and following the training scale, trot in with a 6 and have to pull something amazing out of the bag to EVER get an 8.

[Twiliath]

How about this quote from Kyra Kyrklund, on p. 51 of USDF Connection 2008 Yearkbook:

“A well-trained horse should be more appreciated,” Kyrklund said. Referring to the 2008 Olympics, in which Isabell Werth won the individual silver medal despite the fact that her mount, Satchmo, displayed several gross disobediences, she concluded: “One hopes that dressage doesn’t come into a situation where the top horses are some sort of Formula One horses, and then you have normal Volkswagens. And the normal Volkswagens cannot win even if the Formula Ones drive out of the arena.”

[J-Lu]

BACKBONE

Regarding the original post, it seems clear to me that if this person decides not to become a judge because she is concerned about “people writing negative things about judges”, this person doesn’t have the inner strength or dedication to be a good judge. Or a doctor or scientist or lawyer or professional manager or journalist or any other position that requires confidence in ones self in the public eye. Do I feel sorry for her decision to “drop out”? No.

Nor do I buy the idea that the show couldn’t find anyone to judge the show.

Lastly, Theo, you insult the board because someone doesn’t agree with you? Seriously??

[Ambrey]

I’m sorry, but what type of competition related hobby were they hoping to take up that was not going to involve criticism sometimes? Soccer coaching? Little league umpiring?