For all owners of herding breeds...know about MDR1!

[Pancakes]

Here’s a bit of free advice, aka I googled it:

http://vcpl.vetmed.wsu.edu/problem-drugs

This discusses drugs that dogs with the mutation can and can’t take, and ones that they CAN take but with a reduction in dose or safe monitoring.

Honestly, I can’t think of a drug that could have straight up killed a dog in an ER setting with solely the MDR1 mutation to blame, unless it was ivermectin, which again, shouldn’t be given in an ER setting. Even if you diagnose demodex, you don’t have to treat right away as it’s not a life-threatening condition. Loperamide should not be given in a ER setting, but maybe I’m alone in that. I don’t treat diarrhea with that nor do any of my ER colleagues. Also, MANY of the drugs that do have neurologic effects can be treated by using intralipid, which IS an emergency treatment.

Anyway… the more you know.

[Pancakes]

[QUOTE=GoodTimes;8738862]
I can’t find anywhere in this thread where anyone said that “many vets don’t know about this”. I really hope that you just got up on the wrong side of the bed, you really seem to be taking this PSA way too personally.

Again thank you OP, I didn’t know about the immodium which is something that we often have hanging around the house.[/QUOTE]

It was in the first post.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=invinoveritas;8738206]
I worry when vets get “offended” by something like the OP’s post. Vets should be glad that OP is reminding people.
OP, no need to apologize. I worry about vets who have time to post on boards. My vets are working and keeping up on the latest discoveries, not posting on boards on line.
If you aren’t busy with paying clients, then go volunteer with rescues, you vets who have so much time to post online!:mad:[/QUOTE]

Re-read the posting rules you signed when you asked for permission to post on COTH.

They clearly state that no personal digs are acceptable.
Your post does come across like a personal dig.
If not meant as such, consider editing/apologizing.
That would be, as the posting rules require, the civil way to post.

[QUOTE=GoodTimes;8738231]I’m in the group that is a little disappointed in how the vets are reacting to the OP’s post.
I’ve had dogs my whole life, but they’ve always been retrievers or pointers. I recently acquired a young female who is half Aussie. I knew about Ivermectin, but I didn’t know about Ace and immodium. As an owner I’d rather be informed so shame on you for trying to insult the OP or keep her quiet.

Not all vets are created equal, the same as doctors, nurses, dentists, etc. Just because this is obvious to you, doesn’t mean that a new vet, or one trained somewhere else is immune from slipping up…[/QUOTE]

I think that the OP was the one being insulting here?

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Pancakes;8738861]
Also I never prescribe immodium for anything! there is no need to if you’re treating diarrhea correctly…)[/QUOTE]

Just to respond about the Immodium which my vet suggested I give - it was because I had to travel with my dogs and one had total liquid poop that morning and I couldn’t get it to the vet for a stool analysis before I left. I had hoped he would prescribe meds without a sample but he said no. So he said I could give 2 doses of Immodium if absolutely necessary…plus gave interim diet management/instructions, and then instructed me to get him in for a stool sample when I got back.

It wasn’t really a “treatment”…but an emergency fix until I could get him back in. But - it would not have occurred to me that it could be dangerous to tell a friend, for example, that Immodium was safe to give if they had an “on the road emergency.” So I’m glad for the information.

[For what it was worth, the diarrhea cleared up on its own, so it was probably something gross that my puppy ate.]

[Horsegal984]

[QUOTE=Nadia;8736071]
Many vets are not up on this… My vet told me today that that a client of hers went to the emergency vet over the holiday and they killed the collie with the wrong drugs…This is a high end clinic with all the bells and whistles . [/QUOTE]

The OP is the one who said vets don’t know about this, which is absolutely incorrect.

Add me to the group who can’t figure out what drug they would have given in an ER that would have killed the dog, I’m wondering if it’s death might have had something to do with what it wound up in the ER for in the first place?

It’s always good to pass along knowledge about these things, because so many owners don’t know, but it can be done without insuinating that many vets are decades behind in their knowledge.

[GoodTimes]

[QUOTE=Pancakes;8738880]
It was in the first post.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I missed that before. I take back what I said, although I do think some people over reacted.

[QUOTE=Bluey;8738884]

I think that the OP was the one being insulting here?[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t insulting the OP. I thanked her

[goodhors]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8736613]
Is it really all herding breeds as I’ve never heard it linked to Bouviers…[/QUOTE]

Me either. I use Ivermectin to keep my Bouvier heart worm free, with no issues. Same thing with other, unrelated Bouvier dogs in the past, no issues with Ivermectin use.

Herding dog phrase in title should be Collie Related Breeds instead. But I did learn of the problem some years back, here on COTH.

I may have my Shelty mix tested to see if he would react poorly to Ivermectin. Thank you for the link to testing site. His special medication from the Vet is a little pricy. Going to an Ivermectin would save a bit if he can tolerate it.

[pezk]

Thanks OP for the reminder. My daughters GSD had to be tested before the dermatologist prescribed Ivermectin for the dogs mange contacted from local foxes.

[Where_sMyWhite]

[QUOTE=Nadia;8736071]
Washington State is in the for front in the research for the MDR1 gene, found in herding breeds…please read on their website. This gene is found in herding breeds…50% of Aussie’s and 70% in collies, ect. The gene does not effect life for those that carry the gene, unless they get the wrong drug. They have a list on their website. Many vets are not up on this… My vet told me today that that a client of hers went to the emergency vet over the holiday and they killed the collie with the wrong drugs…This is a high end clinic with all the bells and whistles . My Aussie has one gene from one parent and a normal gene from the other. She has been in Chemo for almost a year, at Davis. It is a careful balance of drugs to save her and does not kill her… Ivermectin and Imodium could kill her…Talk to you vet about this.[/QUOTE]

For future reference.

And IMO, unprofessional to be discussing another client’s dog’s visit to an emergency visit with anyone other than the dog’s owner…

[Griffyn]

Years ago we almost killed a bearded collie at a clinic I worked at, with some drugs it should not have gotten. This was a long time ago, and Im assuming the knowledge is more wide spread, but with some mixed breeds it might be easy overlook. Anyway, I always think its good for owners of these breeds to speak up, better safe than sorry. Anyway, the dog survived, we ate the bill and life rolled on, but horrible lesson learned.

[Rackonteur]

IMO no one should post any advice on any BB because the post might offend someone so badly they do self-banning from the Internet for the rest of their life.

[pezk]

[QUOTE=Griffyn;8739455]
Years ago we almost killed a bearded collie at a clinic I worked at, with some drugs it should not have gotten. This was a long time ago, and Im assuming the knowledge is more wide spread, but with some mixed breeds it might be easy overlook. Anyway, I always think its good for owners of these breeds to speak up, better safe than sorry. Anyway, the dog survived, we ate the bill and life rolled on, but horrible lesson learned.[/QUOTE]
Also greyhounds and the danger from anesthesia drugs.

[pezk]

[QUOTE=Rackonteur;8739480]
IMO no one should post any advice on any BB because the post might offend someone so badly they do self-banning from the Internet for the rest of their life.[/QUOTE]
That would take care of a lot of threads on a lot of the forums.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Rackonteur;8739480]
IMO no one should post any advice on any BB because the post might offend someone so badly they do self-banning from the Internet for the rest of their life.[/QUOTE]

Maybe some should consider proof reading and editing for context before posting?

No need to post in offending ways.

When I first started posting, I thought to add a “sorry” key, I had to apologize so much for not making my posts clear enough and some taking offense when none was meant.

Not everyone has a way with words, that should not keep them from posting, as long as they keep trying to improve how they go about it.

That is one more learning opportunity in this world, how to communicate better.

[Foxtrot_s]

I don’t have herding breeds, but have had Greyhounds which present their own problems.

But what I did learn on one of these threads in the past is that someone had accidentally poisoned their collie because he licked up a splodge of Ivermectin that had fallen on the barn floor when she wormed her horse. Just a PSA - not meant to cause a house fire.

[hoopoe]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8738213]
:eek: Vets aren’t allowed to have downtime to do whatever they might feel like doing???

Frankly, I appreciate that there are vets on this board who are willing to take the time to add in their comments and/or advice.[/QUOTE]

not all vets on this board are in clinical, some are in industry, some are retired. If a person takes a little down time during a lunch break or while waiting for some time point event, what is the harm. I call it a mental health break

If we follow invinoveritas idea, NONE of us would be here, we would all be out volunteering and doing good works in our field of expertise

[Foxtrot_s]

I trust that my vets are ethical, but I do often ask the if they have any vet stories to share.
They do, but would never name names or give anything away that would breech a confidence. I think it is ok and not unethical if you don’t mind a double negative.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=GoodTimes;8738231]

Not all vets are created equal, the same as doctors, nurses, dentists, etc. Just because this is obvious to you, doesn’t mean that a new vet, or one trained somewhere else is immune from slipping up…[/QUOTE]

As an RN of over 25 yrs and a horse/dog breeder, I can say I have to concur. I’ve had some super vets/MDs that I would trust with my life and some that were SO behind and SO uninformed it was scary.

Nothing wrong with owners being well educated and well informed. And YES, vets (and docs & nurses) kill patients. It’s a fact.

In fact, AARP just released a study done by John Hopkins that shows the third leading cause of death of Americans is med/practice errors in hospitals.

[DrBeckett]

Well, I’m offended that you’re offended that I’m offended:lol:

The OP has apologized more than once, so I really don’t want to beat a dead horse, but “some” is not the same as “many.”
EOD.

[freshman]

Good grief.

The MDRI gene mutation in herding and certain other breeds is old news in the veterinary industry and also to the vast majority of knowledgeable breeders/breed enthusiasts that are into these dogs. Everyone has a horror story, vets and owners alike. Most of them are BS on both sides.

I’m sure there a few honest MDR1 casualties from vets who honestly miss the boat with high-risk patients and many more the hands of uniformed owners/breeders that treat with ivermectin or other products on their own. God knows there are enough common diseases that dogs with or without the MDR1 gene mutation. And who knows what an owner hears vs. what owner is told by a vet. I’m often horrified at how information/advice/etc is understood when I hear it later. In a bad situation, there is often more than simple misunderstanding involved. People want someone to blame when bad things happen. And who knows, the herding dog owner might have been warned/advised to test the dog by its primary vet or anyone/everyone else and been too stupid or cheap, blah blah. May have even told the ER vet it didn’t have MDR1 mutation when asked directly. There is no rapid/instant MDR1 test. Perhaps the vet’s story to the OP was just a general PSA. Who knows?

And FWIW, I adopted a cattle dog last year and had no idea about MDR1 gene mutation. She came vetted with preventatives and I had no reason to take her to the vet immediately for routine care. Maybe I’d have been warned/recommended testing at that time. Or not, who knows. I can only imagine this is common and even more so with herding dogs out of general shelters that aren’t breed specific, and of course, all the crosses out there. I only found out AFTER she was in an emergency situation due to something else entirely and it was brought up as a remote differential and had different drug implications, etc. I choose to test her on my own at that point and it took several weeks to get results. I figured I would need to know at some point and whenever it happened, it would not be convenient to wait.