Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t there only 11 apps left after the U.S. Calvary shot the entire herd in a canyon years ago? And if only 11 were left, that would amount to some incredible amounts of inbreeding, right? So, why would you NOT want any AQHA, TB or other blood in there? What is the benefit? I’m not being snarky, but seriously asking, as this baffles me.
I’m not sure if that is exactly how it happened…generally the indians were allowed to keep some horses. You might be mistaking some other tribe…I know of another massacre of indian ponies in a valley where thousands were literally just shot for hours. I do know that the appaloosa survived in feral herds of Spanish origin and descent as well as in the hands of other Native American tribes. Many of our breed’s appaloosa colored stock came from Choctaw strain horses.
I may ask my friend to come over here and post…the one who is sort of the spearhead of the Spanish LP project to see if she can shed some light on how many of the originial appies survived and what happened to them and their descendants.
[QUOTE=pacificsolo;3213999]
Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t there only 11 apps left after the U.S. Calvary shot the entire herd in a canyon years ago? And if only 11 were left, that would amount to some incredible amounts of inbreeding, right? So, why would you NOT want any AQHA, TB or other blood in there? What is the benefit? I’m not being snarky, but seriously asking, as this baffles me.[/QUOTE]
Well, not having any references right handy… I’d guess they shot AN entire herd in A canyon, therefore decimating ONE band’s horses… but probably (MOST probably!) not all of the Nez Perce bred horses in the entire western half of the continent 
These horses had been known for a long time for their quality - and they did not all belong to NezPerce people.
The gripes on QH blood are that the halter horse people have definitely screwed up their little portion of any breed they go into - be it AQHA, paint, pinto, Appy, whatever. Essentially a beef animal on tiny little feet. IMHO, the “pleasure class” trend, be it english or western, is as bad if not worse.
Related abominations to the Appy have been the early injections of Arab blood - trying to get a “more attractive” marketable head - and incidentally sticking the greying gene in there, which has been a real color killer.
As stated - the old time Appy is one heck of a horse - good moving, ground covering, tough as nails, and sound. Also no mane or tail to mess with! though some will want more tail
I found this on a website on the history. According to this a number of Nez Perce indians did escape into Canada with their ponies. Also some of the indians hid their horses and continued to breed them after being forced onto the reservations…very possibly the source of our Spanish Mustangs who are known as Choctaws as they also survived on the reservations and some rancher herds without known or intentional outcrossing as destroyed the bloodlines of the other appaloosas that fell into the wrong hands.
http://www.appaloosa-crossing.com/history.htm
As to why would we want the original “real” appaloosa without outcrossing…Why not if the horse actually still exists which some of us do believe? They are very rare, and we’re talking a breed on the Critical and Threatened list of the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy.
I think…but am not certain…that the Comanche lost an entire herd like that and the canyon is still full of bones. I’m sure if my friend shows up, she’ll know the history well as this is her passion.
I don’t know about the history - gotta check it out - seems as if it was the US Calvary shooting all the NP Indians’ horses in a canyon and leaving only 11 surviving - could have sworn I read that in a book somewhere.
I have ridden one of the “supposed” pure appaloosas, and I gotta ask again - WHY would you want this in your program? What does it add that you cannot obtain from more modern “versions” of the breed? I mean, you have a short-strided, wispy-tailed, ill-tempered PITA - what would that add to a modern day sporthorse breeding program?
My understanding is that the Nez Perce did not just ride appaloosa spotted horses, but also had solids and pintos as well. Appaloosa colored Spanish Mustangs are not just of Nez Perce or Choctaw origins. One of the foundation horses, Mexican Joe, is from… yes, Mexico…
So, if one tribe lost all but 11 of their horses, it does not mean that there were not other appaloosa colored Indian horses elsewhere across the west or feral LP spotted horses, for that matter.
I am not so familiar with the origins of the Appaloosa breed to comment much on that.
Who is saying that is what they want to do. Did I miss something? I didn’t see where anyone was talking about using foundation Appaloosas in a sport horse breeding program.
That’s certainly not what I am doing. My only goal is to breed well conformed, well tempered Spanish Mustangs, capable of sport horse disciplines (dressage and jumping) and if I can do that with LP spots, that’s icing on the cake! So, I guess I’m not talking about foundation Appaloosa either… the SMR is more of a preservation registry anyway.
[QUOTE=pacificsolo;3214164]
<SNIP>
I have ridden one of the “supposed” pure appaloosas, and I gotta ask again - WHY would you want this in your program? What does it add that you cannot obtain from more modern “versions” of the breed? I mean, you have a short-strided, wispy-tailed, ill-tempered PITA - what would that add to a modern day sporthorse breeding program?[/QUOTE]
Obviously, you didn’t get to ride a good one.
Having spent a LOT of 16 hours-in-the-saddle days on the ones I had in my youth, none of the above applies - and the one big gelding had a pretty doggone respectable piaffe, especially considering it was done under a 50 pound roping saddle…
to each their own.
[QUOTE=Simrat;3214406]
Who is saying that is what they want to do. Did I miss something? I didn’t see where anyone was talking about using foundation Appaloosas in a sport horse breeding program.
That’s certainly not what I am doing. My only goal is to breed well conformed, well tempered Spanish Mustangs, capable of sport horse disciplines (dressage and jumping) and if I can do that with LP spots, that’s icing on the cake! So, I guess I’m not talking about foundation Appaloosa either… the SMR is more of a preservation registry anyway.[/QUOTE]
Seeing as how we are on a SPORT HORSE BREEDING forum, I figured we would be discussing the breeding of, say SPORT HORSES.
Well, I breed Spanish Mustangs for Sport…granted they are not a traditional breed but they can do the job and do it well…and with purpose breeding we are putting some very nice horses on the ground…spots are a bonus and we are working on that too. Simrat’s stallion is ASPR approved so you don’t need a “traditional” sport horse or pony breed to belong on such a forum. Granted I don’t stand an app spotted stallion but in our breed, they are all treated as equal regardless of color.
Tell me this is not a “sport” horse. 
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l215/ssluss/Ciscostallionshowjump.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l215/ssluss/Ciscoatstallionshow3.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l215/ssluss/Ciscoatstallionshow2.jpg
This is my new “old” stallion.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l215/ssluss/WaywardshowingatLexington.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l215/ssluss/WaywardJumpingspreadjump.jpg
Aren’t we? There are lots of different breeds and types of sport horses.
[QUOTE=pacificsolo;3214475]
Seeing as how we are on a SPORT HORSE BREEDING forum, I figured we would be discussing the breeding of, say SPORT HORSES.[/QUOTE]
Huh?
Our Appys all play polo. Polo is a sport that requires a horse to run for 14 minutes (2 7 minute periods) while cutting and turning on a neck rein like a cow pony.
All of our Appy polo ponies also jump well…one of them exceptionally well. Movement type wise they are quite different. Two could do well at dressage (have a natural piaffe when “up”), one would make a lovely hunter for an alternate job (all of those have some TB in them…ranging from 25% to 75% TB) and the foundation Appy mare is the “least English” in type…she is definitely more “ranch horse/slightly downhill” built but still manages so jump well.
[QUOTE=pacificsolo;3214475]
Seeing as how we are on a SPORT HORSE BREEDING forum, I figured we would be discussing the breeding of, say SPORT HORSES.[/QUOTE]
Obviously you’ve never heard of Wap Spotted and his get. He, I believe, is predominantly foundation bred. Those are some serious sporthorses.
And many, many years ago I was priviledged enough to borrow the main mount of the Master of the Hounds for the Aiken hunt. It was an Appie – man, could that bugger jump!
You know, they had “sporthorses” before European WBs were popular.
[QUOTE=pacificsolo;3214164]
I have ridden one of the “supposed” pure appaloosas, and I gotta ask again - WHY would you want this in your program? What does it add that you cannot obtain from more modern “versions” of the breed? I mean, you have a short-strided, wispy-tailed, ill-tempered PITA - what would that add to a modern day sporthorse breeding program?[/QUOTE]
Modern versions are quite different in type than the foundation appaloosas. Granted there are some foundation horses that are not too well conformed for sport horse disciplines there are also some very well put together ones. The bone and hardiness is quite good on the foundation appaloosas and for those that come out of good breeding programs that haven’t been screwed up by incorporating QH blood, are not ridiculously muscle-bound and butt high (Note: I’m not saying that all QHs crossed in to the Appaloosa breed have resulted in poor quality offspring.)
There are some appaloosa bloodlines that are heavily loaded with foundation horses and are excellent sport horses and in turn producing excellent sport horses as well.
You can find a sour horse in ANY breed. My personal experience is that the appaloosas are VERY smart and as such do not tolerate nonsensical, abusive or unfair training or treatment. I would lump overuse into this as well. Not easy pushovers, you have to work with them and develop a relationship instead of forcing it but when you do accomplish this they are outstanding mounts, companions and competitors. Definitely worth the extra effort to have a sensible and intelligent horse that is likely to get you into trouble. I have a few different horse breeds but my appaloosas are very trustworthy, less reactive to stimuli (not spooky and tolerant of the naive non-horsey person) and the first choice for my own non-horsey friends, family and children to handle and ride. Not all of them are sport horse types but some are and those have the bone, size, and movement that rivals many warmbloods I have met, watched in competition or ridden myself.
Not all appaloosas have wispy tails either. Usually the ones whose tails turn from dark to white will break off and be wispy. The others are pretty typical and some of their tails are down right thick. All of mine are average to thick, nice long tails but that is because they were born white (true leopards or few spot leopards) for the most part, however, two are nearly solid with minimal characteristics and have not had their tails turn white. I did have one appaloosa with the thinner and shorter tail and it was wonderful to keep brushed out and clean. It wasn’t terribly thin but it also never grew past her hocks. Her daughter has a thick, long tail that grows so fast that it seems like I’m always trimming just to keep her from stepping on it.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;3214962]
Obviously you’ve never heard of Wap Spotted and his get. He, I believe, is predominantly foundation bred. Those are some serious sporthorses.
And many, many years ago I was priviledged enough to borrow the main mount of the Master of the Hounds for the Aiken hunt. It was an Appie – man, could that bugger jump!
You know, they had “sporthorses” before European WBs were popular.[/QUOTE]
Waps are foundation bred? Really? I thought they had a lot of TB and AQHA up close…someone here had one or has one and has talked about the TB influence.
When someone says “foundation appaloosa”, this is what I think of and understand that they mean:
http://www.nyspotsranch.com/OtherStallionsPage.html
I found this as well - thought it was interesting: http://www.jgappaloosas.com/ look under the information “Re: Wap’s Spot 2” - what is the history behind this?
You need to check out the Scripter-bred foundation appys. Google “Solar Flair Eclat.”
I have a grandson of his who is his spitting image. Lovely, lovely horse, good work ethic, great mover, all around Mr. Nice Guy. All appy from a brain point of view, though. Very intelligent, very independant, fiercely loyal.
You might want to take a look at the horses on this site http://www.confettifarms.com/ nice Sporthorse Foundation Appaloosa stallions.
You might want to check into the Colorado Rangerbred Registry or the Sundance 500 website . Might be what you have in mind.
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;3214036]
I’m not sure if that is exactly how it happened…generally the indians were allowed to keep some horses. You might be mistaking some other tribe…I know of another massacre of indian ponies in a valley where thousands were literally just shot for hours. I do know that the appaloosa survived in feral herds of Spanish origin and descent as well as in the hands of other Native American tribes. Many of our breed’s appaloosa colored stock came from Choctaw strain horses.
I may ask my friend to come over here and post…the one who is sort of the spearhead of the Spanish LP project to see if she can shed some light on how many of the originial appies survived and what happened to them and their descendants.[/QUOTE]
Hi Sharon & Simrat
I also don’t know how many Nez Perce horses were left after the herds were massacred. The people who started the Appaloosa breed, used other breeds to refine what they had to work with. By the time the effort was made, the horses had been bred to everything. There were few that were even close to the original horse that the Nez Perce rode.
I need to point out that we aren’t using the decendants of Nez Perce horses in our program. Our horses Are what the Nez Perce used in their program before their way of life was changed forever. Spanish LP horses weren’t exclusive to the Nez Perce.
