Jolie,
Thanks for posting. I knew that you would be able to explain the background of our appy spotted Spanish LP horses the best. 
I think what some call foundation apps are very different from what others may be speaking of - the old cowboys I knew in NC that were into the “foundation apps” were into skinny, small horses that were poorly conformed and ill-tempered. They were supposedly from the original herd of NP Indians. They were also EXTREMELY inbred. Nobody with any common sense would ever consider them for sport horse breeding. Not even to work with cows 
Some are calling lines “foundation” which is fine, but not true “foundation” according to these old guys - meaning not from that original herd (supposedly - how the heck would they even know?). The Wap Spotted pedigree I saw had an AQHA up close - which would discount that horse from being foundation app according to all the foundation app folks I know.
[QUOTE=pacificsolo;3216240]
They were supposedly from the original herd of NP Indians. They were also EXTREMELY inbred.[/QUOTE]
WTF does this mean? Considering the absolute plethora of pictures of Nez Perce riding (nice looking, well conformed, not skinny) horses post-1877, I’d love to know how these ‘cowboys’ traced their horses back and how that’s representative of what may or may not be available today (or then).
There were more than 11 horses left. :rolleyes: Just because you read it in a book doesn’t make it true.
I said I could be wrong - if you want to ignore that, then fine, but it isn’t helping me understand what foundation actually means in this particular discussion.
I have no idea how these “cowboys” traced their horses, but it was their claim, not mine, that they were true “foundation apps”. I can’t make a poorly conformed horse turn into a nice one - I can only talk about what I’ve seen and learned based on what these so-called “experts” told me about their foundation apps.
The issue with the 11 left was not just in a horse-specific book - it was also in a HS history book as well as in a documentary on the US calvary and it’s fight with the Indians. If you say it’s false information, that’s fine - just point me to information that refutes it, please.
Those that have foundation Appaloosas are correct in their thinking…foundation horses of that registry. The Appaloosa wasn’t the horse that made the grueling trek with Chief Joesph’s people. We consider Spanish LP horses the true foundation Appaloosa of the Nez Perce.
There are other legends which have been passed down through the generations by the elders. They are told in story form & memorized.
Not all the Nez Perce people stayed together. There were at least two members that headed south, with more than one prized stallion. They were given refuge with the Choctaws who were already settled in & around the Kiamichi mountains in southern Oklahoma. Those horses donated their LP & PATN1 to the Choctaw horses. There was also tales of LP horses in the Oklahoma Comanche herds …those however may have had a strong Choctaw influence. I know of one man who remembered his father & grandfather having over 250 LP horses in their family herds.
Would someone mind explaining, or pointing me to an appropriate reference, the “foundation” Appaloosa lines that exist today, when you define “foundation” as the horses earliest in the modern studbook.
Hope this makes sense!
TIA!
PS Also, if you can, please talk to me about the modern Appaloosa. I’d be looking at something not too heavily QH-influenced. More comments like some of the ones posted in this thread about their attitude, temperament, etc.
Also, are they still hardy with good feet (again, looking at ones w/o a lot of QH).
Again, many thanks –
You can go to the Appy museum site here:
http://www.appaloosamuseum.org/cms/famoushorses.asp
and get their take on the breed history.
I was told, so there’s that qualifier, that some Arab was introduced to help refine the breed because when they were trying to bring them back, they had been crossed on draft types by farmers for farm use.
You can click on “Famous Horses” and get a look at some foundation-App horses.
I am not saying these are Nez Perce horses- you’ll have to decide what the definition of “foundation” is. Looks like the horse developed in the Palouse/Idaho area was descended from the Nez Perce horses, though.
There has been a lot of QH introduced since then, for sure.
Take a look at the picture of Toby I. The Appy (Foundation bred) I had was descended from him. Toby was foaled in 1936 so I doubt there had been much QH influence at the time.
To me, Toby looks a little stock type with some subtle differences. I think that may confuse some people about how much QH there is in a horse when they kinda look like that. Maybe it’s from the draft blood that supposedly got in there. I know my Appy, at 15.2, had a very broad back. He also looked a lot, a LOT, like Toby I, his ancestor. Maybe a bit more muscle because he had one cross of QH four generations back. Had a bit longer shoulder too and a smidgen higher neck set.
My Appy wasn’t a TB type horse or mustang- but not entirely QH looking, either. He didn’t move like a QH and got good comments from people and a couple judges. (Dressage)
I would agree that most Appy’s are smart, very smart. Abuse is a no-no but I found they actually know when they have a reprimand coming and accept that-but it has to be fair. Hard to gain their loyalty but when you have it, boy, do you. I don’t think mine was particularly brave, but he had also suffered some abuse prior to us getting him. And that’s another thing- they don’t forget.
Second best horse I ever had, next to the grade mare I had as a kid. She would do anything- which, come to think of it, might not have been for the best. But she never lost her head in a predicament.
I was kind of App-biased until I got one.
Uh, another thing with a lot of Apps…better have some fiddle-proof gates and such.:yes:
[QUOTE=Catsdorule-sigh;3219008]
Uh, another thing with a lot of Apps…better have some fiddle-proof gates and such.:yes:[/QUOTE]
Ha ha! :lol: I can relate. One of my appaloosas was getting out when he was boarded. They got calls from the neighbors a couple of times because he was over there eating their lovely lawn. The BO told me he was jumping out and I said “No way, he won’t so much as jump a puddle…he will go out of his way to run around it rather than jump it or get his feet wet.” Prissy horse. We finally caught him using his mouth to open the gate which was secured with a chain and a heavy duty spring load carabiner. He fiddled with it in his mouth until he got it open. BO didn’t realize that the horse got out through the gate because the neighbor would put him back and close up the gate behind him. We started using two carabiners AND tying a rope for good measure.
Now I use a very heavy chain and an extra strong carabiner for the gates. It’s too much for him to effectively manipulate in his mouth.
Foundation Appaloosas for Sport
Ok, to me, a “FOUNDATION” appaloosa would be one who has 8 generations of appaloosa to appaloosa breeding in its pedigree.
That would mean no TB, QH etc. I am speaking of registered appaloosas, regardless of what heard or band they came from. Horses that had characteristics and breeding to qualify them for registration at the time they were alive (rules have changed over the years).
There are not that many 100% foundation horses out there. Rather, most will be designated with a percentage.
http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/34177/2886071420101250289S600x600Q85.jpg This is Chocklate Confetti, a 16.3 hand, 90% foundation bred.
http://www.confettifarms.com/Oreotrot%202.JPG This is Oreo, he is 97% foundation bred, 16.2, and a cross of the WAP and Confetti lines.
http://www.jgappaloosas.com/lennie/expo07c.jpg The “WAP” line is an excellent choice for sport. They have placed well in open competition. This is Waps Millennium, while not a high percentage foundation, he doesn’t have any QH up close. There are a number of “Wap” stallions to choose from.
Google “Confetti Appaloosas” and “JG Appaloosas”, see what they have, check out the stallions, and I would search the usual on line places for mares with these horses in their pedigree. I found my “chocklate confetti” bred filly on Dream Horse.
Good luck to you!
