Founder Questions

[desertmyst]

First,
I’ve never had a horse founder before, i’ve searched on here for more info and googled but would like input into my situation.
I have a mare who lives in a small turnout with a friend, they get grain twice a day and have a round bale.
Last year around christmas she went lame on both fronts, I took her to the vet and they did x-rays and said she had thin soles. We put her in shoes and she was instantly better and great. This summer we took the shoes off and she barrel raced all summer with no problems. In the fall, I’d say mid November she started getting ouchy feet and my farrier was due out so we put shoes on…well the problem got worse.
Had the vet out and they x-rayed and she had foundered Vet reccomended stall rest and putting her in ultimate wedges and we gave her a blood thinner? and she’s on bute and ran the blood test for cushings. She’s been in a stall since then (NOT fun since she hates stalls) along with her buddy (who also dislikes being stalled).

Right now i have her on LOW NSC (10%) feed twice a day and a scoop of bute twice a day plus soaked hay twice a day.
She is wearing the ultimate wedge (which my farrier applied for me) and lives in a stall.
I got the Cushings test back and it is well within normal.

I’ve owned this mare since she was 2 1\2 and she is about 13 now and I’ve never had health issues with her.
I’m not sure what would have caused this to happen, I’d like to NOT have it happen again…ANY IDEAS?

I was told by my vet that after she was off bute and sound for two weeks she could go back outside.

She is starting to feel much better now and so is getting really pissy being inside, pacing\circling ect when other horses get moved in and out. BUT she is still a little off and still on bute so I don’t see turnout in our future for awhile.

I have an appt for updated xrays on 01/07.

I really would like others ideas on what would have made it happen, timeline for your horse to get better, and any other ideas on what to do to help her get better.

Also just feeling frustrated…
thanks in advance for any help!!

[Scribbler]

Can you post photos of her hooves?

Has she foundered or is this only at the laminitis stage?

[desertmyst]

Let me see if I can get them on there…I would say she has foundered, there is rotation and the bone has moved.

[carman_liz]

Does her turnout have grass? In the fall especially in the mornings the sugar is the highest from what i have read. Any new stressors in her life, was the hay from the round bale first or second cutting? Cut this year or last year? That could all affect the sugar content. Did they do a from midnight on fast on her before checking for cushings? Also I could swear checking for cushings in the fall is not as accurate as in the spring. Others on here w more experience can chime in on that though. If she didnt get a fast before bloodwork and depending on the time of year it may not be truly accurate.

You could always ask your vet if you could start her on prascend anyways and see how she does on it. I don’t think it could hurt her anyways. How is her coat this year? Did she shed out well in the spring? When you are soaking her hay, are you using warm or cold water?

Case in point: my friends pony mare founders over 5 min of eating grass or regular hay before she was switched to pellets and cubes. When we soaked her hay in cold water for 30 or so min, completely covered, the water was only slightly brown. When I decided to be a brat and use up the hot water soaking it in the clean mucktub with the hot water for 30 min… the water looked like bad well water brown, that was the molasses aka sugars flowing out of the bucket!!!

So if you can get warm or hot water to soak the hay that should help with removing even more sugar, what does your vet say as far as long term care if she already foundered with the regular paddock and round bale situation? I would be slightly concerned about putting her back on regular hay especially free choice at this point with no soaking or sugar removal.

I would really want to know about the cushing stuff listed above as well. Jingles to your mare it could just be age as well!!!

[carman_liz]

http://vlac.net/client-education/equine-metabolic-diseases/equine-cushing-s-disease

talks about seasons n fasting 😁😁

[S1969]

Agree that testing for Cushings is appropriate. Fasting is not necessary for ACTH testing.

I’m surprised that hasn’t already been suggested by the vet since this is a horse that has had laminitis in the fall twice now.

[Palm_Beach]

Stock breeds tend to be easy keepers, and even more so as they age. It was probably the grass, but laminitis is frequently unpredictable. I’d have this horse in a grazing muzzle at all times when on pasture for the rest of her life. You don’t get much warning with laminitis and it can progress rapidly.

[JB]

@desertmyst

First,

Had the vet out and they x-rayed and she had foundered Vet reccomended stall rest and putting her in ultimate wedges and we gave her a blood thinner? and she’s on bute and ran the blood test for cushings. She’s been in a stall since then (NOT fun since she hates stalls) along with her buddy (who also dislikes being stalled).

If I see right, the xrays you posted are from 12/5, without a wedge. Do you have more recent ones?? The goal is to get the heels down to start realigning the coffin bone. Wedges long-term don’t support that

Stalling a horse who hates is and gets upset can easily raise cortisol levels which can easily work against any healing.

Right now i have her on LOW NSC (10%) feed twice a day and a scoop of bute twice a day plus soaked hay twice a day.

How much, and what is the feed? For this, you need to be looking at ESC + starch to be under 10%, and the starch no more than 4%.

Can you get your hay tested? Soaking is great but if the esc+starch is sky high to begin with, soaking may not be doing enough

I’ve owned this mare since she was 2 1\2 and she is about 13 now and I’ve never had health issues with her.
I’m not sure what would have caused this to happen, I’d like to NOT have it happen again…ANY IDEAS?

I was told by my vet that after she was off bute and sound for two weeks she could go back outside.

She is starting to feel much better now and so is getting really pissy being inside, pacing\circling ect when other horses get moved in and out. BUT she is still a little off and still on bute so I don’t see turnout in our future for awhile.

If wedges and bute are not making her comfortable, then things need to be re-evaluated. Getting the toes back and heels down is the goal Pictures would help, standing on a hard flat surface

What is her turnout pen like? Was there any major weather change around the time she became laminitic?

@S1969

Agree that testing for Cushings is appropriate. Fasting is not necessary for ACTH testing.

I’m surprised that hasn’t already been suggested by the vet since this is a horse that has had laminitis in the fall twice now.

@desertmyst

got the Cushings test back and it is well within normal.

[desertmyst]

Thank you for all the responses!

The vet and I did talk about that this is the wrong time to test for cushings, but she said that if we did them now if she had it the levels would be more towards the higer end of normal. Nothing was said about fasting.

Turnout:
Partial sand, some grass but it’s more like a ground covering than tall grass, it never grows much since her and her friend kept it eaten down. It’s probably 100 ft long by 30 feet wide? this is a guestimation on wide. I know it is 100 ft long.

Feed:
She is eating Bluebonnet Intensity Low Starch and I am soaking the hay for an hour. There is nasty brown water after it is soaked, I don’t have hot water in the barn. She’s eating about 5lbs a day of the feed.
https://bluebonnetfeeds.com/intensify-ex-factor-low-starch/
https://bluebonnetfeeds.com/nsc-equine/

Xrays: They were taken two weeks ago, she said they would take another set in 30 days (appt is 1\7)

Currently she is more comfortable, I walked her down and back in the aisle last night and she seemed fine, a little sore on one foot when turning. I’m cutting her back to 1 scoop a day now to see if she can wean off of it.

will take some pictures of her now, tonight, but she is in the wedges still.

I would like her to be able to go back to her normal turnout soon but I know that may not be possible, she is easily upset if her friend is taken away from her. She has always been a herd animal. They are my only two mares and they like to boss the geldings around so they normally don’t go out with them LOL

The vet had mentioned making her a smaller turnout area outside, or putting her in the round pen. Has anyone done that?

She is a hard one to manage personality wise, I like to say she can bond with a tree She loves her friends eventhough she also likes to chase them around. So either I have to pen one of them up with her or she will get upset that she’s alone. UGH!!! Which is why her buddy is currently living in the barn too.

Oh Weather: No weird weather either.

I’m guessing it is either the grass or the hay, I buy my hay from a local supplier and around this time round bales have been getting sparce. I could probably get the hay tested but it’s all probably from different cuttings (on the square bales). He is out of roundbales currently so I am getting them from whoever I can.

It’s just weird that after all these years I’m now having problems, is this something that can just change?

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

[desertmyst]

Also forgot about asking about alfalfa, good idea or not? We have a local barn that brings in the best quality alfalfa and I can buy it for a reasonable cost. I’ve read good and bad things online. Vet had said to feed her it if I could be I’ve just been doing soaked hay…wasn’t really sure about feeding it to her.

She is on the leaner side of average, you can see her ribs but she’s definatlely not skinny so I’m not worried about the calories.

[JB]

@desertmyst

Thank you for all the responses!

The vet and I did talk about that this is the wrong time to test for cushings, but she said that if we did them now if she had it the levels would be more towards the higer end of normal. Nothing was said about fasting.

It’s a GREAT time to test for Cushing’s, and the ideal test is the TRH Stim test.

Turnout:
Partial sand, some grass but it’s more like a ground covering than tall grass, it never grows much since her and her friend kept it eaten down. It’s probably 100 ft long by 30 feet wide? this is a guestimation on wide. I know it is 100 ft long.

And influx of high sugar weeds can trigger some horses. But hers may be cold-induced, unrelated to diet

Feed:
She is eating Bluebonnet Intensity Low Starch and I am soaking the hay for an hour. There is nasty brown water after it is soaked, I don’t have hot water in the barn. She’s eating about 5lbs a day of the feed.
https://bluebonnetfeeds.com/intensify-ex-factor-low-starch/
https://bluebonnetfeeds.com/nsc-equine/

With a starch of 7%, that may be too high for her, even with the sugar + starch at just 10%

Currently she is more comfortable, I walked her down and back in the aisle last night and she seemed fine, a little sore on one foot when turning. I’m cutting her back to 1 scoop a day now to see if she can wean off of it.

That’s good that she’s improving in comfort, and that you’re weaning off the bute (I assume that’s your “scoop”).

will take some pictures of her now, tonight, but she is in the wedges still.

That’s fine, I’m mostly interested in how the foot looks like it’s been trimmed (and let us know how long since the last trim)

I would like her to be able to go back to her normal turnout soon but I know that may not be possible, she is easily upset if her friend is taken away from her. She has always been a herd animal. They are my only two mares and they like to boss the geldings around so they normally don’t go out with them LOL

Can the 2 mares be together in a smaller turnout space?

The vet had mentioned making her a smaller turnout area outside, or putting her in the round pen. Has anyone done that?

Yes! If you can do that, do that. A round pen may be too small for 2 horses, but if you have a way to make a small turnout - 50x50, 100x100 - so that walking is free choice still but movement is a bit limited, that would be great.

Oh Weather: No weird weather either.

Had it gotten cold? Had it been getting progressively colder?

I’m guessing it is either the grass or the hay, I buy my hay from a local supplier and around this time round bales have been getting sparce. I could probably get the hay tested but it’s all probably from different cuttings (on the square bales). He is out of roundbales currently so I am getting them from whoever I can.

If you get enough hay for, say, 2 months, you can take samples of 20% of the bales to get a general idea. But you may still be in a situation where some bales are pretty high sugar+starch which could trigger her.

It’s just weird that after all these years I’m now having problems, is this something that can just change?

Just a function of aging can trigger these things

[JB]

@desertmyst

Also forgot about asking about alfalfa, good idea or not? We have a local barn that brings in the best quality alfalfa and I can buy it for a reasonable cost. I’ve read good and bad things online. Vet had said to feed her it if I could be I’ve just been doing soaked hay…wasn’t really sure about feeding it to her.

Because some metabolic horses cannot handle alfalfa, I would not try it at this point. It may be something you can try AFTER she’s stable, no more sore feet, moving well, feet on their way back to normalcy.

[desertmyst]

Thank You JB

Ok,
So if I cut their turnout in half that would work? Hmmmmm I could work with that just get some panels and put it across.

I just re-wrapped her feet in the wedges last night so once I have to do it again i’ll pull them off for pictures.

She had her shoes pulled, feet trimmed, and wedges put on last week friday…so the 13th. My farrier looked at the xrays and trimmed her off of them, just needed to take off toe (from what I understood). She does get farrier work every 6\7 weeks regularly.

Which feeds have the lower starch, i’m in texas and have access to a lot at our feed store. I picked this one because it was the lowest over all. I’m happy to buy whatever she needs. (I’ll be there tonight).

[JB]

Look through the BB feeds online (or in a store if that’s easier) and see if any others have a starch <= 4% while keeping sugar + starch <= 10%. What other brands do you have access to?

In the end though, she eats more hay than hard feed, so if the hay is too high…

[desertmyst]

Hmmm, I know they have the big ones…Purina, Triple Crown, Nutrena…then we have lots of local brands, like Bluebonnet, Moore Feeds, then other other brand like Progressive Nutrition, Cavalor. They have so many I don’t know all of them LOL
Let me go search the internet.
I’m working on finding a source of hay that is tested, I have a friend who thinks she knows of one.

[AMackechnie]

I did not see it mentioned, but has your vet tested for Insulin Resistance? We have a pony here that is negative for Cushings, but positive for IR. He’s so sensitive to anything green that he can’t be out with any green at all, including weeds. It may be that your mare won’t be able to have any browse at all, which can be very challenging, but is doable.

[desertmyst]

Well my mare was doing great last week, happy, off Bute and NOT LAME. However this week we seemed to back track and now she’s super lame…having the vet out today instead of next week so we can figure out what is going on.

I know she hasn’t been happy being in so I’m wondering if the stress caused it.

I changed her over to Triple Crown Lite (which has lower starch) and put her on Remission (to hopefully help the recovery). She’s been in her stall except for going out a little to stretch her legs while I clean her stall. I’ve been soaking her hay an hour before she gets to eat it. She has lost weight (not that she had a lot to lose).

I am very stressed over this and i’m hoping that the new xrays have some kind of good news, if not then I have a few decions to make

[JB]

With any founder, and even just laminitis, you’re likely going to be facing 1 or more abscesses. That dead lamina tissue has to be taken care of somehow, and often that’s in the form of an abscess.

[desertmyst]

I hope that is all it is! I’m happy to soak her feet. I was just trying to look up abscesses and founder\lamitis. Would that be something you could find on x-rays or just with hoof testers?

[JB]

hoof testers are not always reliable for determining abscesses, so while showing a pain response might be useful, no pain response doesn’t mean there’s nothing going on.

xrays are also not necessarily good for abscesses - false negatives are also a big issue.