frost free hydrant installation question/ problem

[Christa_P]

[QUOTE=gumtree;7885070]
IMO and experience if the clog is small enough to get through the “plunge” valve at the bottom it is not going to be big enough to get stuck in the considerably larger riser pipe. But stranger things have happened.

Installing a shut off valve the way this has been “plumbed” would require a “special” buried valve that is turned off with a T handle shut off long enough to reach the value connected to the water line. Requires installing a section of PVC drain pipe over the value to insert the shut off handle and to keep dirt from falling in and a cap.

All of my water lines run from the pressure tank with their own dedicated shut off valve. Even the hydrant that is installed right next to the well line like this one. A lot of extra work but beats being without water if the hydrant should fail in the middle of winter. Trying to dug in frozen ground to fix makes for miserable work.

OP, this maybe a stupid question, did you remove the plastic insert on the on the outlet of the hydrant head? This would flush out if a hose is not connected. But not if one is, the hose fitting will hold it in place. Some water will escape around it.[/QUOTE]

The plumbing is what it is. Due to the locations of the well/barn/ and house, plumbing to the house would have been much more complicated - the well is right next to the barn (though the hydrant is at the far end of the barn from the well), but the house (actually mobile home) and the pressure tank are across a paved driveway in the opposite direction.

The plug is not in the hydrant. We haven’t hooked a hose up yet and the hydrant looks clear.

[airhorse]

They make entire shutoff assemblies that have the riser pipe and cap. If anything happens to that hydrant, you are SOL without a shutoff valve. Yes you will need a long key to get to it, but it is worth doing IMO.

[airhorse]

There is also a plastic plug installed in the bottom of the hydrant that could easily be missed too.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=airhorse;7885247]
There is also a plastic plug installed in the bottom of the hydrant that could easily be missed too.[/QUOTE]

Pretty hard to miss that one. Be next to impossible to screw the pipe coupler in. But stranger things have happened.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Christa P;7885201]
The plumbing is what it is. Due to the locations of the well/barn/ and house, plumbing to the house would have been much more complicated - the well is right next to the barn (though the hydrant is at the far end of the barn from the well), but the house (actually mobile home) and the pressure tank are across a paved driveway in the opposite direction.

The plug is not in the hydrant. We haven’t hooked a hose up yet and the hydrant looks clear.[/QUOTE]

I share your misery/frustration. You go with what you have to. One would like to think this should have been a pretty straight forward DIY. Digging the ditch being the biggest obstacle and by far the most work. I remember my father always saying "it’s never easy "over and over again. Hardly a day goes by that I’m not reminded.
IMO there are only two things that should be wrong. Defective hydrant, or something fell into the pipe when being installed. As I said I would start with disconnecting the pipe at the pressure tank and hope that something drains out.
Again please let us know “the fix”.

[PeteyPie]

So what was the problem? Did you figure it out?

[gypsymare]

I have a check valve right before the pressure tank… You might have one, too. This will prevent back flow from pressure tank to well. The pump should have one, too. To hook ours up to the well line the plumber said he’d take the one in the house off and install one at the well head so the tank could pressurize the new line to the barn.

[Christa_P]

[QUOTE=gypsymare;7891540]
I have a check valve right before the pressure tank… You might have one, too. This will prevent back flow from pressure tank to well. The pump should have one, too. To hook ours up to the well line the plumber said he’d take the one in the house off and install one at the well head so the tank could pressurize the new line to the barn.[/QUOTE]

We haven’t had time to deal with it yet, but hopefully we will Friday or Saturday. After talking with somebody locally, I think a check valve by the pressure tank might be the problem. I will update after we find out.

[airhorse]

Easiest way to verify check valve by tank is to have hydrant open when well pump runs.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=airhorse;7892648]
Easiest way to verify check valve by tank is to have hydrant open when well pump runs.[/QUOTE]

That’s the way I see it. The 2 wells we have the check valve is on the pump. I am following this thread because it installing hydrants is a pretty easy and straight forward installation. Other than digging the ditch. In theory there is really no reason other than a clog or defective hydrant that this shouldn’t have worked. I have a few more to install and have installed lots of them. But it is always useful to learn from someone else’s minor mistake and or some quirky thing that nobody anticipates.

[Jim_in_PA]

A check valve between the hydrant and the pressure tank definitely qualifies as a “clog”, as it were…

[PeteyPie]

Can someone explain how a check valve works and why it would reduce the pressure? We have check valves on all of our outdoor hose bibs. At least, I think that’s what they are. I understand the basic idea, that they prevent water from draining backwards from a hose back into the pipes. The gadget is right on the hose bib and is really annoying because every time you turn off the hose water sprays all over and down the wall. It also drips while the hose is on. I had never seen these things before and just assumed they were operating as designed, but it is such a stupid water-wasting system. We have a plant under the hose bib to catch some of the water.

Now that I’m explaining it, I realize it’s probably not working correctly and is something I should have investigated before.

So how does it work, and do they all spray water out when you turn off the hose?

[gypsymare]

Yours is probably busted or the relief drain is clogged. A hydrant has a check valve under ground below the frost line and when the water is shut off it should drain out what is in the vertical pipe part into a bed of gravel down underground by the valve. That prevents water from freezing in the pipe.

In the OPs scenario, there might be a check valve in the house between well and pressure tank. If they T off before that, the water in the pressure tank can’t reverse and flow to the hydrant.

You don’t want potentially contaminated water flowing back down into your well and you want the tank to be able to maintain pressure, hence the reason for the valves.

[airhorse]

Hydrants do not have a check valve, just a drain at the base.

[airhorse]

peteyPie, you have a vacuum breaker, not a check valve. It is working as designed. The key is to shut the water off while the hose is still running.

[Tom_King]

petey, That hose bib backflow preventer is not working properly. If it’s a Woodford, you can buy replacement parts for it.

It’s not supposed to leak at all when the hose is runnng,but pressure back from what’s in the hose after you turn the water off can tell it to release the pressure, so it can let some water out then .

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Jim_in_PA;7892694]
A check valve between the hydrant and the pressure tank definitely qualifies as a “clog”, as it were… ;)[/QUOTE]

This is what I am thinking. But there should be pretty good “back pressure” still on the line between the pump, which my case has its own check valve also and the check valve on the inlet side of the pressure tank. So, when the hydrant is opened it should kick out a good but diminishing stream of water until the pump kick in and becomes steady. But my understanding of these things is the fact the pump will not turn on until the line pressure drops below the setting of the pressure switch at the pressure tank. Which is located after the check valve. The purpose of the check valve at the pressure tank is to “hold” the pressure there and not at/on the pump. Which would strain it every time it kicked in. But Tom King has hydrants on the well line and his work. The check valve at the pressure tank is being kept closed by the back pressure on the tank side. Opening the Hydrant will relieve the back pressure on the line from the check valve to the pump but the check valve will not open so the pressure switch will not activate the pump. Am I missing something here? Seems to me the check valve needs to be moved from the pressure tank and be installed on the pump line side of the hydrant.

[Christa_P]

[QUOTE=gumtree;7894656]
This is what I am thinking. But there should be pretty good “back pressure” still on the line between the pump, which my case has its own check valve also and the check valve on the inlet side of the pressure tank. So, when the hydrant is opened it should kick out a good but diminishing stream of water until the pump kick in and becomes steady. But my understanding of these things is the fact the pump will not turn on until the line pressure drops below the setting of the pressure switch at the pressure tank. Which is located after the check valve. The purpose of the check valve at the pressure tank is to “hold” the pressure there and not at/on the pump. Which would strain it every time it kicked in. But Tom King has hydrants on the well line and his work. The check valve at the pressure tank is being kept closed by the back pressure on the tank side. Opening the Hydrant will relieve the back pressure on the line from the check valve to the pump but the check valve will not open so the pressure switch will not activate the pump. Am I missing something here? Seems to me the check valve needs to be moved from the pressure tank and be installed on the pump line side of the hydrant.[/QUOTE]

This seems to be the problem. Next step is to deal with the check valve, which due to its location will be a pain in the you know where.

[Jim_in_PA]

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7894389]
Can someone explain how a check valve works and why it would reduce the pressure? [/QUOTE]

The check valve only allows water to flow in one direction…so if there is one between the pressure tank and the hydrant, unless the pump is actually running (and it will not be unless water is being run in the house and the pressure drops below about 40 psi) then there is pretty much no effective pressure in the line on the pump side. Check valves are used to prevent water draining back into the well. They are not always installed just above an in-well pump.

Remember, that pump will not run unless the pressure switch inside the house senses that the pressure in the system has dropped below the threshold, usually 40 psi. A check valve between the tank and the hydrant would cause that not to happen.

[airhorse]

Or connect your hydrant line to the pressure tank.