frost free hydrant installation question/ problem

[Christa_P]

[QUOTE=airhorse;7895282]
Or connect your hydrant line to the pressure tank.[/QUOTE]

Due to the layout of the well, hydrant, and pressure tank this would be an even bigger pain. The well is by the barn and the hydrant is at the far end of the barn from there. The pressure tank is under the mobile home on the other side of an ashfault driveway.

ETA: if we could get the hydrant line to the pressure tank hooking it up would still require working in the same tight area as taking care of the check valve.

[Christa_P]

[QUOTE=airhorse;7895282]
Or connect your hydrant line to the pressure tank.[/QUOTE]

Due to the layout of the well, hydrant, and pressure tank this would be an even bigger pain. The well is by the barn and the hydrant is at the far end of the barn from there. The pressure tank is under the mobile home on the other side of an ashfault driveway.

[airhorse]

And hope there is a check valve on the well pump, otherwise you will be sol.

[Christa_P]

[QUOTE=airhorse;7895622]
And hope there is a check valve on the well pump, otherwise you will be sol.[/QUOTE]

Everything is still open, so it will be easy to add one between the pump and the T to the hydrant if needed.

[Tom_King]

The only check valve we have in the whole system is in the submersible pump. I’ve never seen a check valve anywhere else in such a system around here. It’s not unusual for plumbing, or even electrical, to have different ways of doing things in different parts of the country, or even some cities as the rest of the state.

[PeteyPie]

[QUOTE=airhorse;7894600]
peteyPie, you have a vacuum breaker, not a check valve. It is working as designed. The key is to shut the water off while the hose is still running.[/QUOTE]

Thanks!

[PeteyPie]

[QUOTE=Tom King;7894629]
petey, That hose bib backflow preventer is not working properly. If it’s a Woodford, you can buy replacement parts for it.

It’s not supposed to leak at all when the hose is runnng,but pressure back from what’s in the hose after you turn the water off can tell it to release the pressure, so it can let some water out then .[/QUOTE]

I think that’s what is happening; I am turning off the water at the spray attachment first and then turning off the faucet. Like airhorse said, if I do it the other way around, it should solve that problem.

I don’t know what brand it is; I just know it is a fairly small brass attachment which is on the end of the hose bib/faucet and has a threaded section to hook my hose onto. I think they are required by code here in California and are installed on all newer homes.

I just googled the Woodford backflow preventer and yes, that is exactly what it is:
http://www.buyeagle.biz/woodford-manufacturing/woodford-vacuum-breakers/vacuum-breaker-34hf-br

Thank you for the info. Now I’m going to make sure it is attached properly. Maybe it just needs a new rubber gasket or some of that white thread tape stuff (sorry to sound like such an idiot; I just can’t remember what it is called) to get a more water tight connection so it doesn’t leak while I’m using the hose.

Okay, so here is a new question. On that Woodford site, it says, “The Woodford NIDEL® Model 34HF and 37HF anti-siphon vacuum breaker is designed to protect hose connections from contamination where temperatures do not go below freezing.” So what happens in cold places? I never had a backflow preventer in any previous houses, and as far as I know, my water lines were not filling up with hose water… …or were they??? Why is it okay not to use these backflow preventers in cold states? Or are they really necessary?

[moving_to_dc]

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7896764]
Okay, so here is a new question. On that Woodford site, it says, “The Woodford NIDEL® Model 34HF and 37HF anti-siphon vacuum breaker is designed to protect hose connections from contamination where temperatures do not go below freezing.” So what happens in cold places? I never had a backflow preventer in any previous houses, and as far as I know, my water lines were not filling up with hose water… …or were they??? Why is it okay not to use these backflow preventers in cold states? Or are they really necessary?[/QUOTE]

I think the backflow preventers keep the frost free hydrants from draining properly. They hold the water up in the hydrant, where it freezes???

Edited to add that backflow preventers on frost free hydrants, between the hydrant and the hose, keep the hydrants from draining properly. Not backflow preventers placed in other areas along the water line system.

[gypsymare]

[QUOTE=Tom King;7896072]
The only check valve we have in the whole system is in the submersible pump. I’ve never seen a check valve anywhere else in such a system around here. It’s not unusual for plumbing, or even electrical, to have different ways of doing things in different parts of the country, or even some cities as the rest of the state.[/QUOTE]
We’ve had one on both of our houses here in MD. In this photo the check valve is the first brass cylinder fitting on the left. Then there’s the pressure gauge and relief valve and then the will pump pressure switch (gray box). Flow from left to right. If the check valve isn’t removed, it will hold the pressure in the tank and the well switch will not come on. Best to put it back before the T off at the well head incase the one in your pump is faulty.

[gumtree]

[QUOTE=Tom King;7896072]
The only check valve we have in the whole system is in the submersible pump. I’ve never seen a check valve anywhere else in such a system around here. It’s not unusual for plumbing, or even electrical, to have different ways of doing things in different parts of the country, or even some cities as the rest of the state.[/QUOTE]

As explained to me by a Master plumber, well systems that are set up with only one check valve at the pump can and will cause premature pump failure. Especially on systems where the pressure switch is set above the residential standard of 35-45 lbs. Even more with deep wells, that have substantial “head”. The built in thermal overload switch on the pump burns out. Considering pumps cost $$$$ and a second check valve at the pressure tank is around $25 it is “cheap protection”. Our barn well was set up with one check valve at the pump. The pump failed 2 years after moving in. I replaced the pump exactly how it was “plumbed”. Had to replace that pump less than 5 years later and it is not a very deep well, around 75’ verse another one we had drilled, 300’. Discussed with my buddy the Master Plumber and he explained the above and advised the additional check valve. As he said, “I’m sure there are plenty of systems set up with 1 check valve that don’t fail prematurely but considering what it cost to replace a pump verses installing an inexpensive second check valve why take the chance”.

[gumtree]

@gypsymare;7898324

We’ve had one on both of our houses here in MD. In this photo the check valve is the first brass cylinder fitting on the left. Then there’s the pressure gauge and relief valve and then the will pump pressure switch (gray box). Flow from left to right. If the check valve isn’t removed, it will hold the pressure in the tank and the well switch will not come on. Best to put it back before the T off at the well head incase the one in your pump is faulty.

I believe that is what I said in my post 37. But it would be far easier to install on the pump line side of the hydrant then to pull the pump line off the coupling which requires a T handle long enough to reach down into the casing screw into the coupling pull off, and lift enough pipe out which has the pump attached to install the check valve there. I have installed and or pulled a number of pumps it is not always an easy job.

[Christa_P]

[QUOTE=gumtree;7898613]
I believe that is what I said in my post 37. But it would be far easier to install on the pump line side of the hydrant then to pull the pump line off the coupling which requires a T handle long enough to reach down into the casing screw into the coupling pull off, and lift enough pipe out which has the pump attached to install the check valve there. I have installed and or pulled a number of pumps it is not always an easy job.[/QUOTE]

Trust me, we don’t plan on pulling the pump - that is not a job I want to tackle.

Would it be a problem if the check valve is buried? That is what will happen if we install one between the well/pump and the T for the hydrant.

[gumtree]

OP if I read your post carefully to begin with instead of thinking your system was set up like Tom Kings I would have advised you exactly what is wrong. Saved myself a lot of typing and thinking.

When you remove the check valve there may not be a lot of “slack, play” to reattach the pump supply line back on to the tank. If not use a pressure coupling which will allow you to add the extra pipe need to fill the gap left after removing the check valve. Good luck, I know all about working in “close quarters” and it really sucks.

[Tom_King]

I have our well set up so that it’s really easy to pull the pump. I hang the pump on stainless steel sailboat wire rope (cable). There is about ten feet of extra length beyond the well head. That ten feet has a loop with thimble on the end out of the well, and runs through a wire rope pulley attached to a short length of chain.

I park the front end loader with the chain hook on the bucket directly over the well, and hook the short chain with the pulley on it in the chain hook welded to the top center of the bucket.

A strong rope is attached to the loop with thimble, and the front bumper of the tuck. As the truck backs up, the pipe with pump on it comes right up. Two helpers handle the pipe to keep it from breaking, or you can just plan on replacing or repairing the pipe, and pull it out by yourself.

It’s better to back up the truck, so you can see exactly when the pump comes out the top.

Our first two pumps lasted 16 years each, with heavy use. The last one we put in a couple of years ago is a constant pressure, variable speed model, and we like it a lot. It works much better for keeping hot and cold mixed exactly, than the old pressure switch did for washing dogs.

[gypsymare]

[QUOTE=Christa P;7898622]
Trust me, we don’t plan on pulling the pump - that is not a job I want to tackle.

Would it be a problem if the check valve is buried? That is what will happen if we install one between the well/pump and the T for the hydrant.[/QUOTE]
I don’t see a problem with burying it.

[hosspuller]

[QUOTE=Tom King;7898649]
I have our well set up so that it’s really easy to pull the pump. I hang the pump on stainless steel sailboat wire rope (cable). .[/QUOTE]

Tom … How deep is your well ? Does the pump hang from the cable or is the cable slack in place ? And what diameter cable did you use ?

My pump like many others, hangs from the poly pipe at present.

TIA

[Tom_King]

The cable is slack. It’s just for pulling the pump. Well is about 160’, but this same system would handle much deeper with no problem, if you have the space to back the truck up. I think the diameter is 3/32", but it’s been used for so long, that I might be wrong, so it could be 1/8". I’m pretty sure it’s 7x19: http://www.westmarine.com/buy/alps-wire-rope--7-x-19-flexible-wire--P012046736

I have the loops swaged with nicropress sleeves, but I already had the setup for those with tools for working on sailboats.

[hosspuller]

Tom: Thanks for the reply. I like your cable pump pulling system. My well pump is going on 20 years of service. If my pump needs to be pulled, I’ll install a similar setup.