I guess that I’m in the camp of maybe this instructor just doesn’t get it. As long as your shoulder blades and upper arms are stable, then there’s going to be a limit to where your lower arms reach without tipping forward. I’m 5’3" at best, and while I’m on hiatus from riding, my instructor when I rode is USDF certified and she worked with me and my body. There is no way for me to have my outside hand fully below the wither and maintain some bend in the elbow. And I rode a 16.2hand horse.
To those saying the person is on the wrong size horse I just have to ask all of you where you’re getting your information. If you really think it through, it’s NOT a size of rider to size of horse issue. If your arms are shorter, you cannot reach the withers easily when sitting upright. How can a taller or shorter horse change the distance from the riders shoulders to hips/horses withers when seated? :no:
WOW - thanks for all of the responses! 
I just want to clarify that I am not saying that my hands and seat don’t need work - they really do - my seat is no where near as strong as it was 18 months ago and as a result my hands do come up too high when I loose my balance so I REALLY DO want my instructer to get after me for that. 
My issue is coming from trying to keep them even lower than I feel is possible - this results in me hunching my shoulder and collapsing my body. 
I took a friend to the barn yesterday and before my lesson I just sat on my horse at the halt and had them tell me when I was sitting perfectly straight in the saddle - then I reached for my horses withers - I could not even touch them without leaning forward - not even close.
The extra weight is definitely an issue too - I have a very large arse - working on shrinking it - but until then I have to work with what I got. ;) I rode my other mare bareback today (Ms Spooktacular) and without the extra bulk of the saddle I was actually able to ride with my hands comfortably at the wither. So if I can just lose about 4" off of my bum I should be golden. :winkgrin:
I don’t see what difference the size of the horse would make??? 
Seeing as the problem is the height of MY body above the horse.
I am not about to change instructors - this instructor is very very good - and my mare does go better when my hands are at the wither (so she is definitely on the money about that) - it is just my body posture that goes to crap. It is not my instructor’s fault that I have short arms and I am overweight. And being thin and normal body type herself she probably can not relate to my issue. I am just going to try hard to keep my hands as low as I can without tipping forward and when we get to a point in our “relationship” when she knows that I am not just a whiner and I am a really hard worker then I will take the time to show her why I can’t get my hands below the withers.
just be careful and dont make your arms straight… because that makes for a very hard contact.
[QUOTE=Velvet;4625196]
To those saying the person is on the wrong size horse I just have to ask all of you where you’re getting your information. If you really think it through, it’s NOT a size of rider to size of horse issue. If your arms are shorter, you cannot reach the withers easily when sitting upright. How can a taller or shorter horse change the distance from the riders shoulders to hips/horses withers when seated? :no:[/QUOTE]
its the lenght of neck---- if say a person moved up from ponies to horses they might have trouble due to being oversized with the horse
now think of it this way a ponies head is in front you with very short distance between the wither and the head
so one can easily control the head and lenghten and shorten the reins from walk to trot etc
but then that person say moves up onto big neddies that they not used to
then its not so easy to lenghten and shorten the reins as now you have a neck infront of you then a head –
so the size of horse does matter to the size and weight of the rider
as in this case could be over horsed via size
so a person say with short arms might find it difficult to ride so tilts forward or learns rather than sit back and into the saddle and bring the riens back towards the stomach
am not about to change instructors - this instructor is very very good - and my mare does go better when my hands are at the wither (so she is definitely on the money about that) - it is just my body posture that goes to crap. It is not my instructor’s fault that I have short arms and I am overweight. And being thin and normal body type herself she probably can not relate to my issue. I am just going to try hard to keep my hands as low as I can without tipping forward and when we get to a point in our “relationship” when she knows that I am not just a whiner and I am a really hard worker then I will take the time to show her why I can’t get my hands below the withers
Sounds like you have the right attitude.
I can’t understand people telling you to dump your trainer when they haven’t seen video or photos.
It’s possible that, even with conformation issues, you are carrying your hands higher than you need to carry them. We don’t know.
It’s possible that this is a good trainer who can help you a lot. We don’t know.
If you can get someone to video your lessons for you, it will give you more insight into this.
wow can I relate to this!
16’3" elegant long body rhinlander -me? petite with short legs and arms with a long torso. The perfect body type LOL. If you straighten your arms you get a hard arm a tight upper back and closed chest.
I have found a “compromise” positon.
Understanding that in dressage aids the seat comes first, then the leg, and lastly the hand. I want my body to be as correct as I can and get a soft hand. The upper arm belongs to the torso, the elbow forward the mouth of your horse.
So to help my hands and arms stay soft and hands as low as they can be this is what works for me.
I open my chest and relax and drop my shoulders down and back from my ears and gently pull my shoulder blades together. Then I hang my upper arms from the coat hanger of my dropped relaxed shoulders. This softens my elbow and my entire arm really and your dont get stiff. I have to keep checking those shoulders -for me it is the key.
From there I focus on the straight line from bit to elbow and because my shoulders are relaxed down I am a couple of inches lower with my entire arm. I can then maintan a soft elbow bend and straight line to the bit. I then move up the reins toward the neck maybe a couple of inches at most and adjust the height of my hand to maintain the straight line to bit.
This does put my elbow SLIGHLTLY towards the front of my body hanging over my hip bone but never in front and my hands are still a little high. BUT I have a short enough rein to have soft contact and control and enough forward motion in my arm to follow the neck, which is important. A straight line to the mouth and a correct upper body. My arms are just alittle forward and my hands are just a little high- a compromise that still gets the job done right.
Try this and let me know. It sure has work well for me and my horse is happy and I have great line of communication to him.
I agree with her on size and why it matters. Size and proportion makes a huge difference. Being a smaller rider myself, I can tell you that no way can I ride as effectively on a 17 hand horse as I can a 14:2 or even a 15 hand horse.
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;4625534]
I agree with her on size and why it matters. Size and proportion makes a huge difference. Being a smaller rider myself, I can tell you that no way can I ride as effectively on a 17 hand horse as I can a 14:2 or even a 15 hand horse.[/QUOTE]
It’s hard to explain, but the smaller horses are just more compact lengthwise; the withers are not (usually) so far in front of the saddle. When I was riding a 13.1 hand pony, I could get the arm and hand position just right with my hands above his withers. Maresy at 15 hands is a little further out in front of me, and the old, long gelding I rode was 16.1 and it was a reach! (OTOH I rode a friend’s nearly 17 hand TB/Connemara cross a couple of times, and could get my hands right on him, but he has the compact pony body, on top of VERY long legs.) The other thing with the bigger horses is that it’s harder to get my leg around them so I may rely more on my hands.
[QUOTE=Ysabel;4625278]
I am not about to change instructors - this instructor is very very good - and my mare does go better when my hands are at the wither (so she is definitely on the money about that) - it is just my body posture that goes to crap. It is not my instructor’s fault that I have short arms and I am overweight. And being thin and normal body type herself she probably can not relate to my issue. I am just going to try hard to keep my hands as low as I can without tipping forward and when we get to a point in our “relationship” when she knows that I am not just a whiner and I am a really hard worker then I will take the time to show her why I can’t get my hands below the withers.[/QUOTE]
When I found my position fell to disarray, for various reasons, I found my biggest problems with fixing my position were me trying to work my horse.
The best thing I found to do was forget about pony and fix me. You might want to try a month of not worrying about where your mare’s head is, how she’s carrying herself, etc. and just concentrate on making you work better. I would suggest with starting with standing with your trainer and having her put you into the correct position. Go around just concentrating on you position. While it may seem like you are going backward with your horse, in the end you are going to be far more effective when you are riding more correctly.
It did take me all summer to accomplish this and I finally was able to make great strides in my position when the show season ended and I forced myself to stop worrying about her long enough to fix myself. Now I feel much more effective riding her, though I need to schedule a lesson to see where we actually are. I am thinking my trainer will be impressed, though.
Someone else said it as well.
In your next lesson, have the instructor physically put you in the position she wants you to be in. If you notice problems with it at the halt, deal with it there.
If she does note that it is a conformation problem on your part, she should change her approach.
NJR
The hands should not be on the withers, but rather the hand should be in a straight line from elbow to horses mouth (and upper arm vertical). In walk/canter there is a bascule/telescoping of the neck so the upper arm can follow it slightly. In trot, the upper arms stays vertical. Why? Because that is the only way in which the seat affects the horse. If you give forward with the upper arm, hh will not work as easily. And the horse should be up/open/active behind easily from the slight action of the seat, give the arms forward and the hh does not work as well, and then there has to be more and more active, or the whip comes more and more. (It is rather like a tennis serve into a backboard, if the upper arms slides forward the serve is weak.) The seemingly short arms many times come from a weight issue (and deal with), but that does not mean the rider should move the hands forward. That will merely cause a misalignment of the entire weight of the rider. The upper arms still stay vertical, in the end the horse reacts better to that stability (as well as ear/shoulder/hip/back of heel are aligned).
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215252&highlight=alligator+arms
Here is a discussion of the same issue from a few months back. OP, you might search “kangaroo arms” too.
Basically, where your fists end up is not important (ie., over the withers, in front of the saddle, whatever the text books say…). What IS important is maintaining the integrity of that straight line between elbow and bit – NOT breaking that line up or down.
Charles de Kunffy has a DVD that addresses the rider’s (independent) seat and how the components of the seat affect the rider as well as the horse. He goes into a very good description of the placement of the rider’s arm & hand. Buy, borrow or rent a copy! Much food for thought!
Also you might study photos of top riders such as Debbie Macdonald who do not have long arms but ride the bigger horses very well indeed.
Straight line from elbow to bit is possible no matter how long the arm.
Uhm, what? your outside hand should not be visible from the inside?!
Color me confused.
I personally - as non trainer - consider hands forced down on the neck to be not very good, not to say bad.
I have always been taught, some 25 years ago, that the hands are to be about a hand’s width above the withers, reins and arms should form a straight, unbroken line from all angles from the bit to the elbow, which in turn should rest relaxed by the side of your upper body.
[QUOTE=Alagirl;4626214]
Uhm, what? your outside hand should not be visible from the inside?!
Color me confused.
I personally - as non trainer - consider hands forced down on the neck to be not very good, not to say bad.
I have always been taught, some 25 years ago, that the hands are to be about a hand’s width above the withers, reins and arms should form a straight, unbroken line from all angles from the bit to the elbow, which in turn should rest relaxed by the side of your upper body.[/QUOTE]
nah matey you is right lol and i did say the same thing as a few others have pointed out aswell that we are all correct
this is what i said previously the arm is an extention of your hands- let me explain there is a what called a riders outline -there should be two lines schoulders -hip- heal and elbow through tthe hand to the horses mouth
same thing same page ok dokey
op you have got to work on your position start off with setting your sitrrups to the correct lenght then do as i said previous about your position then ask the trinaer to put you on the lunge line and woek on your balance and start to learn how to get an independant seat so your not hangin on thehorses head spoortting your bodyweight which is why you tend to either lean forwards tilt or have reins up near your ears or horses ears either way you havent got a contact with the horse
so position position position is the key then work on your balance with out stirrups and learn to sit into the horse
http://chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178116
read page one and all links its all relevent
also read this topic on coth and work the horse withotu stirrups you may not think it relevent but it is, as tensness in the rider not the horse
all down to lack of balance and lack of balance is not having a central position on the horse
http://chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240111
Me as well - I have a longish waist, but shorter arms/legs - I have always wished my limbs grew another 2 inches longer. When people of normal limb length cross their arms over their chest, their elbows hang comfortably to just barely above their waist. For me, my elbows are well above my waist. For me to stroke my horse’s neck, I have to lean forward, so I teach my horses to accept a little niggle with my finger on their mane at the top of their wither as meaning the same thing as a pat - I literally cannot reach the area in front of the horse’s wither! If I want to pat their flank, I have to lean over sideways and back in order to achieve this.
And a different sized horse has NOTHING to do with it. It’s the length of the rider’s waist to length of arms ratio that determines this. I’ve ridden 15 hand horses and 17.2 hand horses. The top of the wither is the best I can do.
My coach once yelled at me to lower my hands and shorten the reins, both of which make my arms piston-straight. I finally looked at her and said, “I have short arms!” I had learned the compensate the shorter arm structure with a slightly longer (1-2 inches) rein. I found it made the horse happier and I felt more balanced. It is VERY important the rider is BALANCED in the saddle for the sake of your poor horse’s back.
I took my T-shirt off down to my tank top and lowered my hands where she wanted them to show her it made my arms completely straight. She took a good long look and agreed that this was no good and never yelled at me again. She is 6 feet tall with lovely long legs and arms. I’m 5’5" with a longish waist (for my height) and shortish arms/legs. :uhoh: Another 2 inches of length on my leg and arms would have been much more appreciated, but unfortunately I took after my Belgian heritage, instead of my German heritage.
The horse didn’t have a problem with where my hands were as long as my elbows were not straight and tight. As long as there is a nice line from bit to elbow and you always keep a little crook in your elbow you’re fine. The crook in your elbow is necessary to prevent stiffness and tension through your shoulder which is transmitted down your arm and straight to the horse’s mouth. The horse can lower his head and lengthen his frame whether or not your hands are lower. THAT comes from your SEAT and LEGS. NOT where your hands are situated. When they lower their frame way down to a good long stretch (I will let my horses walk and trot with their nose on the ground after they’ve been working really hard), I still follow with my hands but will let the reins slide to achieve the same thing but never let my elbows go straight - which allows for a lengthened contact and some flexibility in my elbows still.
People with shorter arms have to be more alert and skilled at adjusting the length of their reins on demand for whatever the situation is. That is your source of compensation right there. You can follow a lengthening with your hands to a point, but then from there, you have to allow the reins to slide to continue the effect for the horse. The horse doesn’t care that your reins are 1 inch longer than the next rider - it’s the FEELING that counts. Then, when you want to gather the horse again, your shorten the reins and bring your hands back up.
People with shorter arms also have to develop a much stronger independent seat. If you have short arms to your waist length ratio, chances are, you will also have shorter legs, therefore, you had better learn how to develop the velcro and crazy glue on your butt. Because you compensate with longer reins, you must be prepared for the disadvantage that the horse could spook and you must immediately sit your seat whilst drawing back your arms while simultaneously shortening your reins as necessary. People with longer arms can just react to a spook or disobedience just by drawing back their arms.
I can see where the arm/leg things has you working with a better seat, but as to use of the reins, I think the same applies to riders with any kind of arm length, does it not?
I mean, once you have established the elastic connection with the horse, you have the same, or at least very similar distance you can pull back on the reins. That’s what the bend in the elbow is for, plus, with unbend wrists you can make up an inch or 2 there as well…
Not really Alagirl. The “perfect” and “classical” position of the hands is to have a rein length so the hands are located in front of the saddle in the location where the tip of the wither would be. There is a straight line from elbow to bit.
For people like me and the original poster, to put the length of rein there, immediately draws our hands so far forward we are either pulled out of the saddle or our arms become rod straight. There is never quite a correct “line” from elbow to bit. But we have to compensate the best we can in order to create an elasticity between elbow and bit.
In order for me, and I suspect the original poster too, to have a little crook in our elbows, our hands end up sitting just barely in front of the pommel of the saddle.
For me to scratch the top of my horse’s wither, I have to reach my whole arm forward to reach the top of the horse’s wither. My elbow goes straight.
For someone who has never experienced it, and wants to know the disadvantage we are at, I suggest you sit on a horse bareback. Start in the right position. Put your hands where they should be.
Now, to experience what WE feel, slide back about 3 inches. And now you know.
Another visual - when you hang your arm downwards from the shoulder while sitting in the saddle, most people’s hand or at least half-hand length sit below the saddle flock panel and they can comfortably feel their saddle pad. My finger tips come to the middle of the flocking panel. I have to drop my shoulder to touch my saddle pad. I have to collapse my rib cage to the side and lean backwards in order to touch my horse’s flank. I suspect it is the same for the original poster as well.
Well, the ‘correct’ position can’t be achieved when the physical limitation don’t allow it, after all, pick pocket a nekked man!
The connection between 2 points is a line. So you take point A as the horse’s mouth and connect it to point B, your elbow, you have a line.
Again, I am not a trainer, but the hinges and levers are much more important IMHO than the absolute fixture of body part X in location Z.
That means, from the mechanics, it should not matter. Consider side saddle riding, there is no way you can place the hands where it is suggested in your train of thought.
I mean, I was also taught that the hands are upright, the thumb is the highest point of my fist, but you don’t see many top riders stricktly adhering to that either.
You have to work with your limitations.
if that means wearing glasses while reading, or grabbing a ladder to reach top shelves…it’s no different, you can’t take what isn’t there, you can’t make your body do what it is not capable to do. Your arms won’t grow longer because you stretch…I think the trade-offs for that ‘correct’ position are not worth it. you sacrifice on both ends, communication (elasticity) with your horse and correctness of seat (balance) by leaning, not to mention the tension it causes.
So your hands are not over the pommel, big whoop.
