You’re preaching to the choir, hun. 
I was merely trying to explain it for those who don’t understand it. I can most emphatically empathize with the OP, because the limitations could be likened to a weight handicap on a thoroughbred at the track. It is frustrating but nothing much we can do about it. I do get marked down on it during a test by most judges. Only a few judges can see through and realize I need to compensate for a shorter arm length.
Just wanted to say rodawn, that I thought your post (#37) was really good- very clearly describes things and makes a lot of sense.
Eh, what do the judges know! 
I’m not tiny but I’m pretty well proportioned. For me, when I’m heavier, and my chest measurement goes up, I have a harder time getting my upper arm to rest flat against my body- the fluff…ok the fat round my upper torso- just plain old gets in the way. I have to work at it.
And I’m not buying the bigger/smaller argument, not on where your hands end up. I might have trouble feeling I can get my short leg 'round a 17h horse, or feel there’s not enough horse there under a large pony…but my hands are attached to me on the same body they ever where. bzzzt. Not buying it.
OP, are you wearing bulky clothes? Or is the saddle maybe presenting a problem? I know that in old bucket seat style western eq saddles, I feel I can’t reach the horse’s neck- there’s too much saddle in the way. Is your dressage saddle putting you in a similar position- meaning you can’t scootch forward, so you’re sorta riding from the back seat? I just turned down a saddle I had on trial as it stuck its billets in my chest and said you, my dear, shall sit in a chair seat! Um, no thanks!
[QUOTE=goeslikestink;4625357]
its the lenght of neck---- if say a person moved up from ponies to horses they might have trouble due to being oversized with the horse
now think of it this way a ponies head is in front you with very short distance between the wither and the head
so one can easily control the head and lenghten and shorten the reins from walk to trot etc
but then that person say moves up onto big neddies that they not used to
then its not so easy to lenghten and shorten the reins as now you have a neck infront of you then a head –
so the size of horse does matter to the size and weight of the rider
as in this case could be over horsed via size
so a person say with short arms might find it difficult to ride so tilts forward or learns rather than sit back and into the saddle and bring the riens back towards the stomach[/QUOTE]
Nope, still doesn’t work. It’s the riders length of arms. Reins are reins. This is about a rider not having an arm longer than their torso. Size of horse means absolutely nothing in this case.
rodawn
You nailed. I just can’t understand how people are missing that point. I’m NOT overweight by any means and have a waist that allows for my arms to rest comfortably at my sides, and I’ve also ridden small horses to monster sized 18.2h horses. It’s just a matter of the long waist and slightly shorter arms. As in all riding, a solid core is what matters, and an instructor who actually knows something about anatomy and correct hand position based on the riders body type. Not just saying that the hands need to be placed at the withers, two inches over them, etc.
Agreed. Not sure where you got the understanding that my explanation encouraged poor connection. I was describing how I maintained a conversational connection with my schoolmaster. I think that people often misunderstand “straight line” and express it as braced or holding.
Without a “classical” body, some of us have to make adjustments in relation to the horse. It seems more crucial to me to have a strong upright (and moving) abdominal section that’s in line from shoulder to hip (rather than shoulder tipping forward, or falling backward, which typically means if your arms are braced the hands go up). I have found through excellent instruction that sometimes the rest sometimes needs to sort itself out differently.
It really depends on the source of the problem. Many people with shorter arms indeed tend to raise their hands overmuch. Your trainer may be telling you to do the right thing, and there may be other ways to compensate for your arm length.
[QUOTE=rodawn;4628570]
I do get marked down on it during a test by most judges. Only a few judges can see through and realize I need to compensate for a shorter arm length.[/QUOTE]
Curious what the judges say on your test about this… I have the same problem and, until I gave up trying to keep my hands exactly above the withers, notice that my arms got very straight and rigid when I was in the up position of the posting trot, which was the only way I could keep my hands in the exact same position.
I have since had a conversation with a clinician about this (in a general review of my position, she brought up the fact of my short arms, which I thought was kind of cool and perceptive of her). She said I had to find a happy medium for myself, but one in which I kept my upper arms parallel to my torso and my elbows bent, flexible and moving, but my hands part of the reins and the horse. She said I would end up with my reins a little longish and would have to have the horse a little more forward and up into the bridle to compensate for this.
Which I think is why I feel it more on my young horse, who is more strung out and on the forehand than my older horse.
I’m under 5ft and used to think my arms were to short to carry my hands correctly. After lots of practice it is now much more natural to me and now I don’t complain about my arms being too short. Riding is much easier and I don’t get that stiff feeling in my elbows or that sore feeling in my shoulders and back.
Talk to your instructor about your issue and let them put you in the position they want you to be in so you can feel what it should feel like. It’s likely that there is a problem with some other part of your position that is exacerbating this problem. Like someone else said, perhaps you are a bit too far back in the tack.
Keep up the practice and it will get better.
It’s not necessarily height of the person that is the issue - you could be 4’11" and still be better off than someone who is 5’8" with shortened arms. It’s the ratio of torso:arm length. Long waist plus short arms makes for a challenge in arm/hand position plus length of rein issue. People with SHORT ARMS are at high risk of having arms that are straight at the elbows which provides tension to the horse, or alternatively an option for the horse to try bit-related evasions. Shorter LENGTH OF ARM requires a longer rein, and much stronger core and seat to ride the horse through to contact to correct the situation and these riders also have to be aware of their horse at all times (to nick evasions, naughtiness, etc. in the bud).
Another note: A person who is 5’2" looks much better on a smaller horse (say 15HH) which may fix their reach/arm/elbow problem. A person who is 5’6", may have the same length of arm as a person who is 5’2" but who CANNOT always ride the smaller horse because of their overall height. In other words, for example, they have the arms of someone who is 5’3", but a body of someone who is 5’7". I am 5’5", but my arms are the length of someone who is about 5’2". I look ridiculous on a 15HH horse and feel ridiculous too, like I’m perched on a cliff edge. I’m most comfortable on something about 16.2HH but then I have to be right on top of things with regards to my reins, seat and legs. I reject riding horses > 17.2HH because I understand fully my physical limitations/restrictions.
I hope people can understand. It creates a unique challenge that only a short-armed/longer-bodied person can comprehend fully.
Judges who don’t understand my short arm problem always state my reins are too long and knock my scores accordingly. Alternatively, when I ride the next test with that same judge with the reins being the correct length, they then turn around and state my elbows are “too straight” and rigid and knock my riding score again, down to a 6 or 7, maybe a 7.5. Go figure. Interestingly, those same judges will also comment on my ability to bring the horse together on the bit, working correctly over the back from behind into collection. (Which is due to the fact that I have a very powerful core and solidly independent seat and I work my horses through my seat and legs at all times - thanks to the pounding, demanding, insistent instruction of my German and Dutch coaches!)
The judges who understand what’s going on will make a comment that I have a very good, quietly effective riding position for my body type and those judges will score me at a 8-9, even got a 9.5 once. These are usually the tests that result in my winning the class or placing second, as long as other mistakes weren’t made.
I’ve learned that I have no choice but to make up for my physical pitfalls in other ways - I ride my horses powerfully through my seat and legs at all times, I am very accurate in my tests, I’m insistently anal about a horse learning and doing something right (whether at show or at home - I will sacrifice a test and TRAIN the horse through the test, so that at the next show he/she does the movement correctly), and I set strong but realistic goals for both horse and myself which we work very hard to achieve. My horses expect to work hard and expect me to work hard. Nothing less than that is acceptable for any of us. I reward the horse immediately when they do something right (especially if they do it right during a test at a show - I’m well known for leaning forward and giving a sound, one-time PAT on the neck for whatever movement they did right, especially if the horse has only just recently learned said movement, and then just carrying on with the test like nothing happened), and never let a horse get discouraged. [I also have been known to lean forward and smack a horse sharply for being naughty during a test - snap out of it already!!! - and heard more than one judge chuckle at that too!] And I laugh when a bad day just goes stupid-silly. When the stars align and all goes right, then wonderful. But sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches.
really interesting comments rodawn, hony.
Well, hmm, obviously this is a very sore point for some people.:eek:
Very few of us are perfect physical specimens and many of us deal with physical limitations which affect our riding.
Short arms? bad back? Asthma? scoliosis? hip problems? arthritis? We work with what we have and try to ride as well as possible in the circumstances.
somebody explain the length of rein thing to me.
frankly, the length should have no bearing on performance, it’s the contact that counts.
So somebody who compensates with longer reins for shorter arms should be just as well off as a person with longer arms, if the overall arm position is the same.
long/short is a relative term in this context IMHO.
Reins which are too long have nothing to do with the arms hanging vertically. Too long reins have to do with the horse being allowed to be too low/etc. The upper arms neutral position is beside the trunk. Think could I hold a try like this for a long period of time? That only works if the upper arm is vertical. The reasoning behind this is also that when the horse offers flexion it rewards itself. If the upper arms are out in front of the body (making cleavage) and the horse flexes the upper arms will move back to neutral and the horse will have no reward. Secondly, the upper arms out in front of the trunk eventually fatigue, and pull/drop the trunk forward as well. The straight line is always from the elbow to the horses mouth (there is no magic sport out in front of the saddle).
I would bet the OP is no longer frustrated with her short arms, but rather she is frustrated with where this topic has gone. :lol:
color me puzzled…
We stayed on topic, behaved and didn’t get naughty…
We have been good girls, Miss Velvet, Ma’am! :yes:
Me too, Ollie, Me too
Got the same problem.
For myself, it is a combination of
a) shoulders get in front of hips
b) hips not following through
c) horse behind the leg
d) I allow the horse to pull reins through my fingers
e) extraneous “fluff”
f) type A that wants to be perfect at all times
g) people pleasing personality disorder – see f
Solution:
Pay me and I’ll you
Seriously
If you have mirrors, practice at the working walk. If you
are not through at the walk, you won’t be at the trot.
I have found that watching a lot of videos and different
body types is helpful.
You are probably having trouble keeping the correct rein
length and contact. I bet you lean forward into upward
transitions. Ask me how I know.
You are probably using your shoulders to maintain the correct
length and contact instead of your hands. Practice this
at the walk and keep aware of your fingers and hands.
I know, I know, the constant stream of dialogue between
mind and body…
Mind: Where are your hands? put your heels DOWN. Sit up already!
Body:" my ankle hurts. Maybe this stirrup is too short. Hey,
you up there! my tits are falling off.
Mind: Shut up! Can’t you see I am making a 20m circle?"
Body: “warning, lactic acid buildup! Shut down in 1 minute”
Mind: Grow some ovaries. I’ve got a show to go to.
After a while somewhere in the back of said Mind, I realize
the third party in all this, who has patiently all this time been trying to do what I ask, even when he is getting conflicting aids gets through.
HORSE: “Um, there’s breathing living flesh on the end of
this bridle. HELLO.”
One more thing, if your coach gets mad at you.
Tell her to “Lighten Up, Already”
[QUOTE=rodawn;4628508]
The “perfect” and “classical” position of the hands is to have a rein length so the hands are located in front of the saddle in the location where the tip of the wither would be. There is a straight line from elbow to bit.
For people like me and the original poster, to put the length of rein there, immediately draws our hands so far forward we are either pulled out of the saddle or our arms become rod straight. There is never quite a correct “line” from elbow to bit. But we have to compensate the best we can in order to create an elasticity between elbow and bit.
In order for me, and I suspect the original poster too, to have a little crook in our elbows, our hands end up sitting just barely in front of the pommel of the saddle.
For me to scratch the top of my horse’s wither, I have to reach my whole arm forward to reach the top of the horse’s wither. My elbow goes straight.[/QUOTE]
You’ve described the short-arm issue very well. I started out on my (low-level) dressage foray with very straight arms and tight, unbent elbows. I’ve softened my arms, bent my elbows more, worked a lot on my seat/hip angle. Things are going well but there is a lot of room for improvement. My hands are where they want to be but my arms are not hanging at my sides. Here’s an illustration:
Welcome to the school of hard knocks. Sounds like you’re letting your ego get in the way of improving your riding.
There is no set length of rein. Not everyone has to have exactly 15 inches of rein between the bit and your hand. If the judge says your reins are too long then your reins are too long. Clearly there is slack in your reins or your hands are too close to your body etc. etc. etc.
I have a habit of letting my rein out an inch in the extended trot because as a short person with short arms I get a little lazy and it’s easier just to slip them. Based on this thread alone I spent Friday working on the extended trot without letting my rein slip an inch. Guess what, my transition to medium was much smoother.
Are you sitting correctly in your saddle? This can cause a multitude of problems for anyone let alone a shorty.
To the OP: Let go of the crutch and try doing what your coach tells you. It honestly boggles my mind that you pay this person to instruct you each week but don’t try to achieve the standard they have set out for you. What a waste of money.
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