FYI: Avoid this KKB Stallion Owner that won't answer those Tough Questions

My motives are simple. When a stud owner goes off on people for asking “What has your horse done besides race?” and deletes all questions and comments that are not “He’s so preeeetty!”, they are a stud owner to be wary of.

When I ask, “Why should I breed to your stallion?” I expect the owner to be ready for such questions and have real answers vs getting bent out of shape, calling me a troll and being generally unprofessional.

If you want to breed to this horse, go for it.

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I don’t know anything about HH. Is it a discussion forum? FB Group? I have no idea.

I hesitate to respond, but I’m just curious why a race record should be dismissed? A number of warmblood registries will approve a thoroughbred stallion using race records in lieu of a performance record. (Not saying that this would apply in this particular situation)

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We recently had a thread discussing how we tend to respond to fugly horses in sales ads where everyone is going Ooo so cute.

The consensus was that you just smile, sigh, and move on. It’s not the time or place for leaping in with a critique.

Obviously if you were halfway interested in a horse or stud you would start PMs to get more information and decline if you didn’t like what you heard.

Nothing in this ad is misleading. Horse is 13, had a long race career, is nicely put together, and there are very few TB studs outside the racing community.

Most TB crosses are out of OTTB mares who obviously weren’t retained for racing breeding. I don’t see where anyone is going to have time to put an upper level jumping record on a 13 year old OTTB.

The person looking for a stud can make up their own mind if he’s a good fit for their mare. I quite like him actually. He’s nicer than lots of existing registered Paints, he’d improve the breed (speaking as a Paint owner).

There are way worse studs out there, especially in stock horse breeds. I don’t see why this horse needs to be trashed on an international chat group other than FB drama overflowing to COTH.

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Actually, I am the person this Julie chick put on blast.

First and foremost, none of the posts I saw trashed the horse including mine. He’s nice looking. But a horse needs to do more than look nice. The criticisms were never about the horse. They were about the lack of professionalism by his owner when she refused to answer reasonable questions posed by myself and quite a few others. All of which were deleted. That’s when the criticism began.

Color is irrelevant as are papers, IMO. You can’t ride either one. Horses can be talented runners, but either don’t have the mindset, movement, desire or talent to perform other than running fast. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But I’m not going to want to breed to a horse that cannot or will not do anything but run. So I don’t think asking these questions is unreasonable.

A friend of mine had a GORGEOUS horse. His name was Chippendale and he was every bit the Chippendale model of the horse world. I really mean it, this horse was jaw dropping. He was an OTTB who had performed very well on the track. But when it came to his new career, he absolutely didn’t give a crap about what you wanted. He plodded around like an old school horse, refusing to engage or move forward. You could not get him to even canter. He didn’t want to. Jumping? I don’t think he ever went over a jump that he didn’t either trot through or knock down. He wound up being a trail horse and would only walk on trail. No desire to do anything to break a sweat. Again, absolutely nothing wrong with this, but would you breed for this? Unlikely. He had a lower lobotomy and was a very happy, fat, lazy gelding after that.

Anyways, apparently I got on her radar when discussing his racing performance. This Julie person posted that he ran 64 times. Ok, that still doesn’t say much other than he had the snot run out of him. My horse Chuck ran for 4.5 years and retired sound. Doesn’t mean he’s worthy of reproducing; he absolutely is not even though I love him to death.

Julie’s horse apparently earned about $200k, which initially seems impressive. Until you do the math. That’s average earnings of about $3200 per race. So that doesn’t really impress me either.

So, I inquired about his record on and off the track. I inquired about the types of races he ran and how many he’d won. Were they Stakes races? Claimers? Allowance? etc. I asked what he’s done since he came off the track. She touted marketing to AQHA and APHA futurities and incentives, I mentioned they are the biggest contributor to the slaughter pipeline which I do have a problem with.

My questions were deleted and went unanswered. I wasn’t the only one asking these basic questions of this stallion owner. And I wasn’t the only one who got the boot for asking.

So I posted again, and got banned. After that, yes, I sent her a snarky private message and she showed her unprofessionalism and put me on blast. And no, I didn’t put her on HH, but someone who PM’d me after the brouhaha did.

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He looks well put together, and running that much and retiring sound (if he is) is definitely a consideration for breeding. I wouldn’t count him completely out based on his conformation, bloodlines, and history of soundness if I had a mare that had a performance background. Color is nice but not a main consideration.

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I’m 33 but go off :roll_eyes:

This doesn’t effect you personally so I’m not sure why you’re so upset about it. If you don’t like the stallion or the stallion owner then don’t breed to him. I think it’s a biiiiiiiiig stretch calling her a KKB or saying the stallion isn’t worthy though

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I read this post (and the OP) as someone who is totally unfamiliar with TBs. And that’s okay. But to drag that drama from another group onto COTH is beyond the pale.

I originally wasn’t even going to respond… This is not my kind of thread and I try to avoid the drama.

However, I just want to point out to you that the average number of starts for a TB is about 5. A horse that can retire clean legged after 63+ is nothing short of remarkable. This horse isn’t a talentless hack. This horse raced for 63 starts, is blemish free, conformationally correct, and I suppose to many the chrome is the cream on the top.

Why people are so quick to discredit a racing career is beyond me - that is de facto the most difficult job in the world.

There are nowhere near enough stallion owners standing nice TBs for sport. I wouldn’t be going around kicking this SO’s head in because they didn’t want to amuse the FB vigilantes.

FYI: You can look up all of your questions about what type of races he ran on Equibase.

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I totally agree it’s a question any breeder should be asking themselves about the matings they arrange.

I take issue with the implication that a stallion owner needs some sort of approval from others to breed their stallion.

Maybe I am being over-sensitive about this. But I feel like there are two ends of the breeding spectrum that end up falsely representing all breeders: you have your truly BAD breeders churning out unusable garbage that flood the kill pens, then you have your people with unrealistically high expectations to the point where nothing is good enough. The reality is most knowledgeable and capable breeders live somewhere in the middle. Breeders don’t all have the same goals, and that is a good thing. People like to preach “breed the best to the best,” but it’s not that simple because what it means to be “the best” depends on the intended outcome.

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Considering your attitude, I can understand why the stallion owner didn’t rush to justify herself and her horse to you. It doesn’t sound as though you were actually interested in breeding to the stallion, more like you were looking to stir up trouble–and drag it all over the internet.

And you succeeded. Good for you. :roll_eyes:

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@creseida

Yeah well snarky PMs on sales sites get you banned. Sales sites shut down trolls and controversy fast. They aren’t Reddit or other flame-suit-on chat groups.

From what I can see the outrage of multiple posters on the FB group as described seems way out of line for a sales site. It sounds like a pile-on that got personal and overinvested really fast. Is this spillover from real life conflict?

Anyhow I thought it was general knowledge that FB horse sales sites don’t tolerate criticism or nasty PMs or any controversy really. I’m not surprised you all were banned. That’s how these sites run. I’m sure it’s in the site rules somewhere.

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I wish I could like this more than once.

That is an excellent point. I have very very rarely seen a horse with less than excellent conformation make it through that many races without serious injuries.

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Hear hear!

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And overall likely a higher quality horse than the sweet little doofus OTTB that retired after 1 start and has been jumping two foot 6 in junior local classes. Most of those aren’t stallions, but there are lots of those mares out there and are the typical mares to breed Appendix QH, draft cross dressage horses and CWB. The higher quality mares stay in the race horse breeding pool.

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Why is it your business to police who breeds to what, and why?

What do you care if some people want to breed to a stud they like for color?

Your other option was to leave people to their own devices, and you mind yours.

I can’t imagine why someone thought this silliness over this stallion should be ported over to COTH.

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He looks like a well put together very flashy war horse who has a nice record and has stood up to the rigors of a track career. The ire of a couple of sanctimonious keyboard warriors is beyond the pale. Don’t like him? Don’t breed your mare to him. Jesus… don’t hurt yourself patting yourself on the back because you’re saving us from irresponsible horse breeding. People can do their own due diligence when making breeding decisions. Believing you’re some sort of gate keeping breeding crusader is ridiculous. Put down the Cheetos. Step away from the keyboard. And go live your own life.

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If I had a draft or thicker type mare and wanted some chrome while lightening my foal, he seems like a great choice.
There are quite a few stallions who have little to no show records. It’s not uncommon. Plus, he ran so many times; maybe he deserves a retirement from showing and working?

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If I wanted a jumper or eventer he’d probably actually be a nice cross on my big bodied chestnut Paint mare :slight_smile: assumimg he’s splash or one of the white mutations and not frame Overo.

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I doubt he’s frame, that only runs in a couple of TB lines. Unfortunately I can’t remember which ones right now. He also isn’t sabino, SB1 is not found in TBs, so it’s likey some unidentified white pattern.

He looks lovely in that picture, I’d love to see video of how he moves just out of curiosity, since my only mare is 27, so no breeding for her. :wink:

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TIL horses get lobotomies?