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Game Over

Hunter/Jumper
#21

[QUOTE=downpour;2867196]
If I was paying a ‘‘mid 5 figure sum’’ for a horse, I would want it to be able to definitely jump the height I want it to, not just possibly, for that amount of money. But, I can see where you’re coming from. As the vet has said it is possible the horse may/may not be able to, I personally wouldn’t risk spending a considerable amount of money on a horse that may, or may not be able to jump the height I want it to. Just my opinion, though :)[/QUOTE]

No vet that I know of will garauntee a horse for any specific purpose. They tell you what they find and let you have at it. They usually will give you specific information about any findings, but not warrant for a specific usage.

Tire kickers.

#22

The vet’s role is to thoroughly examine the horse and explain to the buyer the significance of any physical abnormalities in relation to the horses intended use. There are things a vet cannot or should never do with regard to a pre-purchase examination findings:

Pass or fail the horse
Guarantee the horses usefulness for a specific purpose
Predict the length of time the horse will continue to perform its intended function
Make judgment about the horse’s value
Dictate whether the horse should be purchased

Having a trainer, or professional involved in a sale does not guarantee that the seller will avoid the nightmare buyer, and all that involves, but it does weed out a lot of those who will waste your time, which is not without consequence to anyone selling horses. A trainer/pro knows, or should know, and understand the concept behind the PPE and what it is intended to accomplish. A pro/trainer has the ability to take the information given through the PPE process and make an informed logical evaluation of the risk associated with buying a horse with scare on its ankle.

I cannot, and do not blame the poster for feeling the way they do. Perhaps if you sell a horse once every 5 years or so, you have the patience and tolerance to deal with the flakes associated with equine sales. However if you sell horses regularly then these individuals can suck the life out of your sales business in time and wasted effort.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people involved in the business that are less then knowledgeable, and the posters sale 1 is a perfect example. What the potential buyer expects is way outside the scope of a PPE, and cannot be guaranteed by anyone outside of GOD.

I do not have all the answers there are just too many variables involved. Sales open you up to those meaning well without knowledge, those you would never sell a horse you had an ounce of concern for, amateurs who are more interested in proving themselves, to pros/trainers who are want to kill a sale so they can benefit from finding the horse etc. My suggestion is to evaluate the potential buyer as much as you can before you waste the time and effort of showing horses etc. I sell to trainers only now, I pretty much refuse to deal with the buyers anymore, and I only sell to trainers/pros I know and respect for the sales and the horses sake, and the few occasions when I do deal directly with buyers I am more than willing to walk away from the deal to save myself the aggravation.

#23

I do agree that when you’re dealing with a horse that has a sale price that high there should be a trainer involved from the beginning.

My daughter’s friend’s parents searched for a horse for their 13yr old daughter for over 2 years - $5000 or less, must jump. After countless disappointments (horse wouldn’t vet, they’d try a $10K horse where the owner wouldn’t drop the price enough, etc) they finally bought a 5yr old green, race-trained TB with a festering jaw abscess and a huge lump/scar on her hind leg from a blanket strap getting tangled in it. Said horse regularly crow-hopped and is the laziest, non-motivated “eventer” that I’ve ever seen. Bought the horse for $4000, spent over $2000 on the osteomyelitis.

Guess what? They had a trainer help them decide on the horse. Trainer was sick of the whole process. :smiley: And not a backwoods trainer - I’m sure there are folks here that have heard of her.

On the flip side of things, I’ve heard riders say that they don’t like to involve a trainer too much in the search process because they always come back with the most expensive horses possible - never a diamond in the rough.

#24

Sorry but this is just not one of my goals when horse shopping and not a reason for ME to pay 15% commission. Now if YOU want to pay my trainers comminssion…:D.

Seriously, I don’t think all trainers are created equal. Some can really smooth out the process and some can make it a nightmare so I don’t see that " having a trainer" is automatically a good thing. Knowledgeable buyers can be amateurs or pros.

#25

Just had to chime in with recent experience with several trainers - I have a great packer for sale - have been dealing with trainers for the most part - I have had 3 come out with client, ride him, love him, say they will call me to set up trial or try him again and then NOTHING - not even a call to say - we found something else we like better …so while I’m all for having experienced help - I sure wish they could be a little more professional in their approach - waste of time for all involved and makes me a tad sour on the whole trainer thing

#26

The two nastiest lawsuits involving sales that I am aware of had trainers involved on both sides :eek:

#27

I might be able to live with a scar on the ankle but I am not sure I could live with a scare on one :lol::lol::lol:

#28

Not everyone “has” a trainer or full time instructor. There are many horse people in this world that show that do not need/want/can afford a full time BNT. Yet these people still want nice horses to buy and show like everyone else.

As one poster above has already mentioned as a seller more often then not when a nice knowledgable person comes to see one of my young horses and likes the horse, a price is settled upon, a vetting arranged and everything is looking good and I get the “of course I need to have my trainer see the horse” story comes along I know how this is going to go…

  1. BNT likes horse (has usually seen it already in competition and knows the show record, breeding etc)

  2. BNT is pretty irritated that a price has already been set without their prior knowledge…how dare a client actually take the time to find and view a horse on their own??? (takes me aside out of earshot of client) and tells me what his/her commission will be on the sale. Ummmm I don’t remember making any deals with you??? My arrangements are with the seller as they should be.

  3. After I won’t play the commission game I am quite sure that BNT will soon find a reason that the horse is no longer suitable for their client but they have “just the perfect one right around the corner to see at another BNT barn”.

Yeah right!

#29

“If I was paying a ‘‘mid 5 figure sum’’ for a horse, I would want it to be able to definitely jump the height I want it to, not just possibly, for that amount of money. But, I can see where you’re coming from. As the vet has said it is possible the horse may/may not be able to, I personally wouldn’t risk spending a considerable amount of money on a horse that may, or may not be able to jump the height I want it to. Just my opinion, though”

this is long and i apologize :winkgrin:

A vet’s job is really only to inform the client of potential problems and risks - no vet can say with 100% certaintly that they guarantee the horse will be able to do a job with out any trouble what so ever - I think the lady having and issue with a “scar” on an ankle and expecting a vet to tell her the horse can or can not do the 4’6" (none the less!!!) with essentially a guarantee is absolutly insane! If I were her trainer, i would have sat her down and said…the vet can’t tell you and guarantee you that nothing will happen to this horse, he has vetted clean 3’6" is obviously not a problem - I’m sure if you compete and train at a height over 3’6" you will HAVE to do maintenance on this horse just as you would any other horse. The horse is safe, has lots of potentially and if you are going to nit pick over a scar that is probably nothing other than cosmetic then you need to keep shopping, but i can guarantee you you WILL NOT find a hors ewith NOTHING wrong with it…especially a nice young horse with real 4’6" potential in the MID 5 figures. Just my opinion though. I agree with the OP here…though a trainer can’t make all sales go smoothly - THEY CAN explain things to their clients, keep them under control a bit (especially if they tend to be a little on the “jumpy side”) they can speak directly with the owner/seller in a more professional and objective approach.
As a trainer I inform all of my customers while horse shopping that I will discuss concerns, issues and negotiate with the seller directly - everything that is discussed I will run by them of course as they are PAYING the bills, but it helps keep the sale clean with LESS stress to buyer and seller…I go over the vet report with ALL the vets and clients - sit down with the clients and help them make an EDUCATED decision on the horse based on the vetting, horses attitude and SUITABILITY and my professional opinion on where I believe the horses potential will bring them as a team and towards the riders goals.
Just recently I had a 60 year client come to me and tell me he wanted a new horse…though his is great, doesn’t do it’s changes, 3’ is a stretch and he doesn’t love it etc - his goal was to get to the 3’ and show more…said OK this is what we need to look for…an older horse, steady edy, knows his job and has the record to prove it…we need to be willing to look at horses in this price range…went to look at a horse…siad he was around 14/15 years old…he was PERFECT for the client…just perfect, a record a mile long, can count himself, auto everything and sweet and adorabe to boot…had the vetting…vet couldn’t determine the horses age due to a mouth deformity - said he could be 14 he could be 17 - client was pretty nervous about the age…we discussed…and i called the seller asap and told them right away about the client’s concerns and said we aren’t going to waiste your time, let me discuss with the client see where he is at and I will call you with n answer with in 24 hours…told the client…look - here’s the bottom line…this horse is sound…he had clean xrays, clean flexions, clean evreything…so he might be a frew years older than we thought…Are you comfortable on him? “YES” So you trust him over a bigger fence? “YES”, do you feel as though you can learn a lot from THIS horse? “YES” - Did you feel secure in the saddle and confident on board this guy? “YES” Do I THINK you look great on him and can learn a lot from him…OF COURSE - Does his age bother you that much if he has a clean bill of health, ZERO maintenance, he’s sound and has been showing in the 3’/3’6" eq with his JR. rider owner all year and winning? “NO” well…i think we have our answer here…he is the RIGHT horse for you and according to the vet, owners and my opinion, there is no reason why this horse cna’t continue to do what he is doing for the next several years at LEAST - of course there is the chance he can get hurt, or may need some more maintenance down the road, but are YOU WILLING to do it? “Yes” so we bought the horse. Yes he was nervous, yes he was afraid if the horse was on the 17 year old side he would have limited time…but the bottom line is, as HIS TRAINER i was able to guide him through the buy to do what was BEST for him, I dealt with the head aches, the nerves, some of the “irrational thoughts” NOT the seller and the sale went smoothly b/c the lines of communication were open and honest on both sides from the beginning. Just my opinion

#30

On percentages - as a seller, I am NOT going to pay for the other trainers commission…that is the responsibility of the buyer - I will toss money towards a broker IF I ASKED them to aid in the sale…as a trainer shopping for horses with clients - I inform my cliets AHEAD of time that whatever is discussed for a price with the owner/seller they will need to set aside XX number of dollars to pay my commission after the sale has gone through. I see that as the only fair way to go. When I sell horses for other people I take a percentage off of the FINAL sale - I have the client’s BOTTOM number to sell horse and to pay me and I work off of that…but I inform the BUYER what my percentage is as well and the sale of the horse includes my commission as the total sale price but I would NOT be going to them or the seller for additional money after we have agreed on a price…it is done right then and there.

#31

I understand what you’re saying but you are definately generallizing. When my mom and I were looking for another horse last summer we chose to go without our coach. Initially we showed him the videos of any horse that we considered and he would always come up with some reason why we shouldn’t by them. Then it dawned on us that he had several similar horses for sale, but we didn’t want them, they just weren’t ideal hunters.
Anyways we ended up just buying a lovely 4 yo from a BNT that we know quite well. You don’t always know the circumstances!

#32

Thanks for both of your posts…and you are right on! In short, for those that don’t want to use trainers…go ahead. However as you can see the world is split into 2. Those of us that prefer clients have trainers (and those clients that want trainers) and those who are more concerned about “paying” one and being taken to the cleaners. All sports have proffesionals and there is a reason most of us earn that titile (though some are not so professional and that’t too bad for the peope who train with them). I still feel that having a trainer involved is the best thing for all.

#33

Not trying to upset anyone…and perhaps I have putting people into catergories…I’m sure there is a small group of non pro’s that are capable but, come on we all know the majority are not

#34

That first person will never find a horse. A vet can’t just say “Yes, definitely will hold up at 4’6.”. I mean, the horse could trip getting off the trailer and be relegated to 2’. I would think anyone involved with horses to be competent enough to jump 4’6 would understand the lack of guarantee on any horses soundness.

The second person couldn’t afford your horse- even with a trainer that could happen.

I’m not sure either of those sales would have happened with a trainer.

#35

For those of you that only like to deal with buyers with trainers…

I have done it both ways.

The last horse I bought WITHOUT a trainer, I tried the horse once, set up and vetted, then bought and picked up the horse all within 4 days (yes, he was that good ;)). I believe I went to look at the horse 2 days after talking to the seller but I am not positive about that.

The last horse I bought WITH a trainer, I tried the horse multiple times (at trainers urging), had horse vetted, bought, etc deal was completed in about 10 days (again, a good horse ;)). The horse was first tried about 2 weeks after the first contact with the seller.

Which seller do you think has the easier sale?

I am knowledgable enough to buy without a trainer and usually do. However, if I am working with a trainer I like and specifically want that trainer involved with the new horse (especially if it is a greenie) then I will shop through the trainer and pay commission or whatever we agree upon if I find a horse and do all of the work. I must say, however, if you are working with a good trainer it can really slow the process down. Trainer schedules can be quite difficult to work around with multiple clients shopping, shows, clinics, etc etc and I don’t want to let a good one get away:cool:

#36

[QUOTE=downpour;2867196]
If I was paying a ‘‘mid 5 figure sum’’ for a horse, I would want it to be able to definitely jump the height I want it to, not just possibly, for that amount of money. But, I can see where you’re coming from. As the vet has said it is possible the horse may/may not be able to, I personally wouldn’t risk spending a considerable amount of money on a horse that may, or may not be able to jump the height I want it to. Just my opinion, though :)[/QUOTE]

The OP said the horse was young - I think 4 yo - I don’t know a vet anywhere that will tell you a horse of 4 will definitely jump 4’6" when its older - a lot can happen between now and then…

Anyway … as most of us know (and many learned the hard way) a perfect vetiing is only perfect at the specific point in time that it is done - Many a horser that vets well, is not sound later and sometimes horses that vet a little iffy stay sound and working long after the ones that vetteed better have stopped…

As to trainer or no trainer - some people a crazy and some are sane and most of us fall in the middle, trainer or not…

#37

If this is what you want then you need to be willing to pay for an animal that is already competing at that height, not a prospect.

#38

I completely sympathize with you on tire kickers, but I kind of disagree about the woman who vetted the horse with a scar. Trainer or no trainer, the deal was contingent on the vetting being satisfactory to her. It wasn’t. End of story. It may have been satisfactory to you or the rest of the world, but it wasn’t to her-- and it was her money. She clearly was a bonafide purchaser-- or else why did she shell out for the PPE? I wouldn’t ever hold it against someone who walked after something was discovered on a PPE. No matter how minor. That’s the breaks.

Plsu, she used your vet (?!?) and you got a free exam for your horse out of it (?!?). An exam that, to you, shows the horse to be in great saleable condition. That you can use for future buyers. Why are you griping?! Someone gave you a free exam through your vet of choice?!

I agree 100% about the other tirekickers, and they’d drive me nuts too. But I don’t agree about the woman who vetted. No matter how minor the scar may be, it was something found on the PPE that she wasn’t comfortable with. I’ve been in her shoes. She was entited to walk and that DOESN’T mean she was wasting your time.

#39

One of the problems I see with our sport is that the title of Professional is not earned, anyone can just decide to be one.

There are many amateurs in our sport that are as knowledgeable or even more knowledgeable than many professionals out there. I am sure these are not the people that the OP was referring to, it just something that gets under my skin when the solution to every problem is to have a professional look at it, have a professional ride it, etc.

OK, stepping down now - this can turn into a whole other topic on testing and licensing!

#40

Not so fast

[QUOTE=SSFLandon;2867474]
All sports have proffesionals and there is a reason most of us earn that titile [/QUOTE]

Some of us didn’t do anyting to earn our title. :wink:

We just hung out our shingle and started calling ourselves pros. :smiley:

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