Game Over

[caffeinated]

I think the only real truth that can be taken out of this is that the business of buying and selling horses pretty much sucks, and horse people are crazy

Whether they have trainers or not grin

On a personal level, I am an amateur that would likely make my next horse purchase on my own. However I’d be looking at cheap track rejects that I could bring home for $1K or under, without specific goals for the future (A rated show hunter? Awesome! Trail hack? Also awesome! whee!). I do think if I was going to spend a substantial amount of money and had a specific goal beyond playing “my pretty pony” I’d involve someone else, just to keep me objective. It just seems like common sense, but again, see truth #1 above.

[arena_run]

Sounds like these folks were just – that kind and it probably wouldn’t have mattered WHO else was w/them… if someone won’t listen to a vet, you think they’ll listen to a trainer any better?

Sounds like you’e not willing to listen to anything but your own opinion either.

And how can you find the logical reasoning to lump ‘non trainer havers’ into the one catagory of ‘folks who don’t want to pay’? There are just about as many reasons to not involve a ‘trainer’ as there are folks who don’t involve trainers. sylvia

[Trixie]

All sports have proffesionals and there is a reason most of us earn that titile

In this industry, the thought that most of the professionals have somehow earned that title is total bullcrap. It is, in fact, one of the few industries in the US that one can hang out a shingle and DECIDE to be a professional with absolutely no skill or qualifications. I absolutely refuse to believe someone is competent just because they SAY they are a “proffesional.”

I have found that with or without a trainer, people can be difficult. Trainers can waste your time the same way an amateur can. Some of you are saying that you refuse to show a horse without a trainer…well that’s your choice but not good business sense. In every job, no matter what business you work in, you deal with people that you don’t necessarily want to deal with but you do it because that’s your job. So, if the worst thing you can say about your job is that you had to deal with someone who wasted your time then you have it pretty easy. In the end, being patient, helpful and nice might earn you more business and not to mention money.

I REALLY agree with this. Also, trainers tend to forget that they ARE in the service industry - i.e., they answer to their clients/people that are going to be paying the bills. Let me put it another way: I don’t bring my CEO to a meeting where I am qualified and responsible for making the decisions. And if you were to refuse to work with me because I didn’t bring my CEO to a meeting, I’d be highly insulted, and I don’t know that I would want to do business with you. You want to sell a horse? Same thing. A nice “bedside manner” really helps. And if you make things too difficult for me, you WON’T have my money.

I realize some people are emotional about selling horses, but it’s still a business transaction. Going on and on about how potential clients are a “waste of your time” leads me to think that you’re forgetting that this IS a customer service business, at least in a lot of respects. The customer isn’t always right, but they do pay the bills. Yes, you have to weed out the idiots – and it’s a very thin line – however, offending a large percentage of potential clientele is NOT a good business strategy.

I agree 100% about the other tirekickers, and they’d drive me nuts too. But I don’t agree about the woman who vetted. No matter how minor the scar may be, it was something found on the PPE that she wasn’t comfortable with. I’ve been in her shoes. She was entited to walk and that DOESN’T mean she was wasting your time.

When spending thousands upon thousands on something as fragile as a horse – I would want to feel COMFORTABLE and she obviously did not. She dropped several thousand dollars into a veterinary exam with your vet and released the info to you: this is not something that tire kickers would do.

Especially with all the trainer horror stories we’ve heard – it’s really not a good way to weed people out. You’re going to get tire kickers or people that are overfaced financially either way, and you’re going to get “no sales” either way. Besides, let’s face it – this being an industry with complete and total nut jobs, it kind of sounds like you got off easy. Frankly, the horse selling business, for the most part, SUCKS unless you’re blessed with ultimate patience. Not everyone is.

And, one more thing: not everyone shopping without a trainer is doing it because they don’t want to pay a commission. Also, being an amateur, as someone else said, does not render one incapable of making a sound decision.

[vxf111]

I’m an ammy, and I shopped w/o a trainer for various reasons.

1. I was leaving one barn and going to another, so I was somewhat sans-trainers during the initial stages of the process.

2. New trainer is gasp an eventer and therefore gasp has this insane idea that gasp adults should think for themselves. Not that she wouldn’t help me, but I have more hunter buying/selling connections than she does and she gasp would never nix something I selected because she gasp trusts my opinion and gasp is willing to work with all different kinds of horses. She’s just not a hand holder. I’m okay with that. Why do I have to have my hand held if I don’t want it held?

3. I knew what I wanted and where to look for it. I had been in the area long enough to know who to avoid and who to call.

4. I just wanted to prove to myself that I was capable of doing it alone. I didn’t want a trainer to help because I felt like horse shopping was one of the many “horsemanship” experiences that I wanted to get in life. I wanted to go through the process beginning to end and do it myself so I could know, in the future, that I was able to do it.

So ammies who shop without a trainer aren’t necessarily tire-kicking or being cheap. Sometimes there are perfectly good reasons to be shopping alone. Moreover, as much as I can understand being ticked off at tire-kicking buyers-- remember the buyer gets to deal with no-call returning, misrepresenting, barn blind, sometimes outright distruthful sellers. So it’s not like the grass is always greener on the other side.

[thumbsontop]

I think too, and this has been discussed before, that some clients have trouble swallowing a commission based on percentage. It’s just like real estate. What’s the motivation to recommend a greenie with potential a $x when they can talk you into a “made” horse for twice the price and make a bigger commission. I’ve never once had a trainer who was willing to search dreamhorse and make a few calls. For the most part it’s word of mouth, which is great, but oftentimes it’s more expensive. I want my trainer to find the BEST horse for the BEST price - and with a commission based on percentage it ain’t gonna happen…well…often.

[Lucassb]

As an amateur, I almost always buy for myself. I have been doing this for more than 30 years, have a very good idea of what sort of horse suits me, and I work with a trainer (long distance) who respects my judgement.

Sellers who won’t work with me are certainly entitled… but they’ll miss out on a no-nonsense buyer who will come, ride the horse, make a decision and call the vet.

I have purchased my last three horses from professionals/dealers, and all three deals were concluded in under a week from the time I called to see what they had available - and that includes the shipping into my barn. And, I have to say, all three horses have worked out very nicely; the oldest is now approaching 20 and is semi-retired after a career that spanned all three rings for more than a decade. My current show hunter is ready to move up to the 3’6" at the AA shows (assuming I can get my act together) after becoming a packer in the adult ring. I bought him as a relatively green coming 5 year old. Being selected and managed by an amateur doesn’t seem to have gotten in his way at all.

The point is that professionals can facilitate a deal or they can screw one up.

We all know situations where the seller’s deal got nixed even though the horse was perfect for the buyer - because the trainer couldn’t “work” the deal for extra commission or because they had something in house that they could get commissions on both the buying AND selling side. And of course there are terrific pros out there who WILL facilitate a sale - by helping a client adopt realistic expectations, not fall in love with something unsuitable, or perhaps by using their network to find a wonderful horse at a great, unadvertised price… because they know the trainer on the other end, and will get that phone call when someone needs to sell fast (job loss/divorce/etc.)

[kittykeno]

purchasing horses

SSFLANDON I just want you to know that there are amateurs out there that are more than capable of purchasing their own satisfactory mounts. You can count on me not to raise your frustration level…I only buy young horses from American breeders…no trainers involved.

[MIKES_MCS]

[QUOTE=SteeleRdr;2867078]
I’ve had the same experience with buyers WITH trainers.[/QUOTE]

DITTO DITTO AND FREAKING DITTO!!!

[witherbee]

I totally agree that many people have a misconception about what a PPE IS. You find that more often with folks who do not have a trainer with them IME.

That said, we’ve been jerked around by trainers as often as by ammies who are on their own. I prefer the self-confident ammie who comes in and tries the horse once or twice, gets the PPE and buys or doesn’t buy. Usually the trainer requires more visits and scheduling and takes more time and can be very insulting and pompous (not always, but often enough that I dread dealing with them).

I’ve also had the last minute “I can’t afford it” drama - this AFTER a PPE and a couple of weeks of negotiation. I think it is cold feet and am happy to cancel the sale at that point - I won’t sell to fruitcakes if I can identify them in time (sometimes they slip through - ugh).

We sometimes sell “made” horses, but more often they are OTTBs right off the track or still at the track. It amazes me when people come looking and expect to be able to ride (at the track) or expect the horses to be “made”, even though they are clearly still in racehorse mode and have been advertized as such. We’ve gotten to the point where we very rarely let anyone ride them, even at the farm, because they have not been let down yet and some of these people seriously over-estimate theor abilities (think lawsuit waiting to happen). It’s hard for me to understand because I have bought all but my first horse on my own, and have pretty much known right away that it was the right horse for me - even without riding them in some cases.

I do agree that trainers can set expectations as far as what you get in what price range, what you SHOULD be looking for at your skill level and with your goals, and can hopefully educate you on what the costs will be aside from the purchase price (which to me is the most important factor). I also think that ANY newbie should bring an experienced horseperson with them when shopping, an even we “oldies” can benefit from an objective friend. I do usually ask my SIL (a racehorse trainer), to take a look at my choice or come with me if she has time, so I guess I DO use a trainer lol! I really respect her opinion and normally do not do a PPE due to her expertise in legs and lamenesses - she is an amazing horsewoman!

[findeight]

Two sides to this issue…complicated by dishonest trainer/agents who are out to rip off. That is a different issue.

I might suggest OP sort of “vet” anybody, trainer represented or not, that comes to look at a sale horse. A few questions on the phone like what level are you jumping? Where do you show? Who have you worked with…and really, nobody is going to teach themselves how to show an A level Hunter or level 4+ Jumper without SOMEBODY helping them somewhere along the line.

I wouldn’t trust anybody I didn’t know or had never heard of anywhere or anybody unknown to me represented by a trainer I had never heard of without doing a little research ahead of time to learn who I was dealing with.

Couple of questions ought to sift thru the tire kickers, low ballers and kids.

In OPs case, the first lady doesn’t sound like a bona fide 4’6" Jumper rider with any experience at all or she would have known NO vet will ever promise anything about future soundness. Second lady sounds like she was in way over her head financially. Both wasted your time.

Do a “buyer PPE” next time.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=findeight;2867721]
In OPs case, the first lady doesn’t sound like a bona fide 4’6" Jumper rider with any experience at all or she would have known NO vet will ever promise anything about future soundness. Second lady sounds like she was in way over her head financially. Both wasted your time.[/QUOTE]

Remember also that the “reason” the buyer passed has been filtered through the OP who wasn’t there when the vet talked with the potential buyer. I have a feeling something is being lost in translation, and that there’s a slightly more reasonable explanation for the pass than the fact that the vet wouldn’t predict the future. If the potential buyer came and rode mega expensive jumper prospect going 3’6 and didn’t set off red flags to OP as a total newbie, then she probably wasn’t completely clueless. And if she shelled out megabucks for a thorough PPE, that doesn’t sound like a noob either. It sounds to me like someone who found something on the PPE that she wasn’t entirely comfortable with. Maybe she inartfully communicated the issue to the OP. Maybe the vet was trying to “soften the blow” when he communicated to the OP. Regardless, I have a feeling there’s something lost in translation in regards to what actually was found/discussed at the vetting.

[kellyb]

[QUOTE=SSFLandon;2867057]

I have several horses for sale. So far I have shown 2 of the 3 1x each. Both people were not with a trainer nor were they going to involve one. First young horse {specifics removed} behaves awesome and vets great. No sale. Why?? he has a scar on his ankle and she wanted the vet to say that it would never bother him at 4’6. The vet said that it does not bother him now but can’t predict the future. She says that unless the vet says for sure he’ll be fine she can’t buy him. Vet says it’s not for him to say if the horse will be able to perform at that level and again says he’s not going to guarantee anything on a young horse. No Sale

Horse 2…Another young horse is tried. Behaves perfect and also has show mileage . Lady plans to come back next week to re ride. Lady then says she can’t find time (a week has already past) and offers $4500 less then already reduced price. I say no I must get more. We settle on price which was still reduced several thousand. She also wants blanket…no problem. She sets up vet then less then 12 hrs later claims she just can’t afford it. Again, no trainer. No sale

My moral to the story…having a trainer can make the life of other trainers (and their clients) much easier. Many non pro’s think they know what they are doing but, don’t. It’s unfair to us or anyone to waste time and no sale for no good reason other then poor planning. A trainer could have helped both these women figure out what they can and can’t do or live with. People do get cold feet but, both these cases were not that. Just pure ignorance.:mad:[/QUOTE]

How would a trainer have helped this situation? By cajoling buyer #1 to buy a horse she didn’t feel comfortable buying because of a scar, or by spotting buyer #2 some cash so she could afford the mount? It is frustrating when people reach out of their price range, but she could have easily lied to her trainer about her price range, and you’d be in the same situation.

I understand why you are frustrated, but the same thing happens with trainers or without. Tire kickers in general (pro OR ammy) suck. But to imply that someone without a trainer isn’t capable of selecting a horse is too much of a blanket statement.

If you have an issue with selling to ammys, then why not just make it your personal rule that you won’t see anyone who doesn’t have a trainer?

[findeight]

And add to that a trainer KNOWN to you or one known by somebody you know and trust.

That is probably the reason trainer/agents can be of such help in horse searches. They know alot of people and are known by alot of people so there is a level of trust there.

Just saying “trainer only” won’t protect you from buyers that are just not legit.

[Lucassb]

trainers tend to forget that they ARE in the service industry - i.e., they answer to their clients/people that are going to be paying the bills. Let me put it another way: I don’t bring my CEO to a meeting where I am qualified and responsible for making the decisions. And if you were to refuse to work with me because I didn’t bring my CEO to a meeting, I’d be highly insulted, and I don’t know that I would want to do business with you. You want to sell a horse? Same thing. A nice “bedside manner” really helps. And if you make things too difficult for me, you WON’T have my money.

I realize some people are emotional about selling horses, but it’s still a business transaction. Going on and on about how potential clients are a “waste of your time” leads me to think that you’re forgetting that this IS a customer service business, at least in a lot of respects. The customer isn’t always right, but they do pay the bills. Yes, you have to weed out the idiots – and it’s a very thin line – however, offending a large percentage of potential clientele is NOT a good business strategy.

These are very good points.

By the way - I am MUCH more likely to pay a professional who has demonstrated a respect for my judgement than I am to pay one who has demonstrated that they believe I must blindly do what I’m told, “because they’re the trainer and they know best.” (What BS.)

[Catalina]

[QUOTE=Windswept Stable;2867243]
Because as annoying as your incidents, are the folks that come alone to try, then suddenly halfway thru the dealing–want to involve a trainer. Which NEVER works out because the trainer wants something entirely different that the mom has picked out.[/QUOTE]

Those are the worst :mad:. I actually sent my horse out on trial with a woman who fell in love with him and arranged everything without her trainer being involved. I got daily phone calls from the buyer saying how much she LOVED the horse and how fabulous he was. Then, one week into the trial I get a curt message on my answering machine from the trainer saying that the horse is coming back because his hock x-rays are NQR. He had just been x-rayed a few weeks ago and my vet said that his hocks were normal for a 12 y.o. horse. WTF?!?!?!? I guarantee that the trainer had something else in mind for the buyer; something that she could get a piece of the selling price from :yes:.

I also had a trainer come out with a buyer who wound up giving the buyer a mini lesson on my horse and then told me that he wasn’t the horse for the buyer. You couldn’t tell that 30 minutes ago? :rolleyes:

[kellyb]

[QUOTE=Trixie;2867622]
Also, trainers tend to forget that they ARE in the service industry - i.e., they answer to their clients/people that are going to be paying the bills. Let me put it another way: I don’t bring my CEO to a meeting where I am qualified and responsible for making the decisions. And if you were to refuse to work with me because I didn’t bring my CEO to a meeting, I’d be highly insulted, and I don’t know that I would want to do business with you. You want to sell a horse? Same thing. A nice “bedside manner” really helps. And if you make things too difficult for me, you WON’T have my money.

I realize some people are emotional about selling horses, but it’s still a business transaction. Going on and on about how potential clients are a “waste of your time” leads me to think that you’re forgetting that this IS a customer service business, at least in a lot of respects. The customer isn’t always right, but they do pay the bills. Yes, you have to weed out the idiots – and it’s a very thin line – however, offending a large percentage of potential clientele is NOT a good business strategy.

When spending thousands upon thousands on something as fragile as a horse – I would want to feel COMFORTABLE and she obviously did not. She dropped several thousand dollars into a veterinary exam with your vet and released the info to you: this is not something that tire kickers would do.

Especially with all the trainer horror stories we’ve heard – it’s really not a good way to weed people out. You’re going to get tire kickers or people that are overfaced financially either way, and you’re going to get “no sales” either way. Besides, let’s face it – this being an industry with complete and total nut jobs, it kind of sounds like you got off easy. Frankly, the horse selling business, for the most part, SUCKS unless you’re blessed with ultimate patience. Not everyone is.

And, one more thing: not everyone shopping without a trainer is doing it because they don’t want to pay a commission. Also, being an amateur, as someone else said, does not render one incapable of making a sound decision.[/QUOTE]

totally agree.

[Ravencrest_Camp]

I have a better one.

[QUOTE=Catalina;2867840]
Those are the worst :mad:. I actually sent my horse out on trial with a woman who fell in love with him and arranged everything without her trainer being involved. I got daily phone calls from the buyer saying how much she LOVED the horse and how fabulous he was. Then, one week into the trial I get a curt message on my answering machine from the trainer saying that the horse is coming back because his hock x-rays are NQR. He had just been x-rayed a few weeks ago and my vet said that his hocks were normal for a 12 y.o. horse. WTF?!?!?!? I guarantee that the trainer had something else in mind for the buyer; something that she could get a piece of the selling price from :yes:.

I also had a trainer come out with a buyer who wound up giving the buyer a mini lesson on my horse and then told me that he wasn’t the horse for the buyer. You couldn’t tell that 30 minutes ago? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I had a trainer come out and look at a horse for sale. After showing them the horse I knew they werren’t interested, just wasn’t the right horse. But the trainer, knowing full well the client isnt going to buy this horse, says “get on and ride, we have come all this way” :mad:

[Catalina]

@vxf111;2867634

2. New trainer is gasp an eventer and therefore gasp has this insane idea that gasp adults should think for themselves. Not that she wouldn’t help me, but I have more hunter buying/selling connections than she does and she gasp would never nix something I selected because she gasp trusts my opinion and gasp is willing to work with all different kinds of horses. She’s just not a hand holder. I’m okay with that. Why do I have to have my hand held if I don’t want it held?

I love eventing :D.

I bought my current horse without my trainer’s help or even knowledge. She came out to give me a lesson one day and I said “Guess what I got?”. She couldn’t be more thrilled with my purchase and recognizes that an amatuer is capable of thinking for themselves.

[Ophelia123]

There are many adults that are capable of purchasing their own horse - as a JR i went out and bought my own horse with out my trainer, granted i knew she woudl LOVE her, but she was the exact opposite of what we wanted…we were going for, broke, ready to do the 3’6", and a boy - i came home with a stunning 2 year old dwb mare, on the lunge only! But I brought home a QUALITY horse and we made it all work - aqnd to this day my mare is my former trainers favorite…but it doesn’t always work out that way.

Now on the trial subject…I just WONT allow them. I have in the past, not many issues…UNTIL a fellow trainer/friend brought her ammy rider to try my nice tb gelding…stated all his perks, flaws, needs etc from the get go…he is green, but SUPER willing, and trusting…still needs work on the right side, softening and bending…but NEEDS mileage and a good training ride at least 1x a week still etc…MUST HAVE a good fitting saddle or he WILL get back sore (hard to fit TB!!)…came, watched him, loved him, ammy got on…NERVOUS isn’t even the word, my boy packed her toosh around the ring, IN THE DARK, over cross rails for 45 minutes then came inside to the indoor, jumped around and flatted around there - trainer saw all the potential, how safe and reliable he was…told them what I wanted which is far under what he should be…said NO problem…I let them take him for one week to ride vet etc…i get emails, he’s great this that and the other thing…trail rides blah blah…vetting happens ONE WEEK LATER - annoying but whatever…now all ihave heard for the past 2 weeks is, he is great we love him, trainer says if she doesn’t buy him, then i might find away for myself to buy him blah blah blah - vet comes out - wouldn’t ya know…back sore, no big deal to them…vet says “we have a twisted shoe here” says nothing more…put him on the line, seemed a bit “off” behind - put him undersaddle, vet says he is a bit off of that hind - they call me…say will you do the x-rays…I say NO - that is part of the PPE, if you want him you do the x-rays if you don’t want him bring him home - he passed when I bought him 8 months ago, can’t imagine there were be something HUGE going on now…ammy says, I need to think about doing x-rays - she says i really only have x number of dollars to spend and your asking price is the amount i have FOR EVERYTHING, COMMISSIONS< HORSE< NEW SADDLE< VETTING…well what does that have to do with me…you knew the bottom line when you took him and now your telling me that the amount we agreed on to BUY him was what you have IN TOTAL to find a horse pay for the horse, the vetting equipment and commissions…and she still wants me to pay for the x=-rays…I just said look you are doing a PPE the purpose of this is to see if there are any issues, what they are, if they are manageable and FOR YOU to decide if they are things YOU CAN DEAL WITH OR NOT…she decides to go with the x-rays…says she has an appointment in 3 days and asks if he can stay…I said for 3 days then thats it…meanwhile trainer doesn’t want to make it seem like she is pushing the issue and takes the back seat - 2 days later i get a call…still ahven’t been able to get an x-ray appointment - WHAT you said you had it scheduled…I got fed up with it and set thats it I’m bringing him home this is now two weeks almost 3 past our original agreement, the situation is being taken advantage of I am coming tonight to pick him up. Bring him home go to ride him…HORRIBLE - SO back sore he WILL NOT canter, and then canters in place and BUCKS, now this horse has NEVER done a thing wrong since I bought him AND my JR riders ride him and show him…he is a gem…call up the trainer, has he been doing this the whole time? what happened etc? Trainer says, we didn’t do anything strenuous with him, he’s been an angel - no issues - I said I can’t believe this horse didn’t act like this ONE bit while you had him…I ended up having a full exam done myself - turns out - the “BENT SHOE” vet talked about was his right hind it was stabbing him in the foot, causing him to get SORE and CRANKY and guess what it was his RIGHT HIND - wouldn’t that make sense why he was “a bit off behind” - YES - after a a week of robaxin and time off, fixed shoes he is back to normal, I called the trainer and ammy to tell them I had him vetted he passed with flying colors on all x-rays, flexions etc but was SORE and we were fixing that…ammy says, OK great then I’ll take him back for another week of trial once he feels better…are you kidding me?? the trainer calls and says, well this is probably for the best, I’m not sure she was a great fit for him!

Sorry a bit of a tangent - the point which sort of got lost ehre was that a trainer that is INVOLVED and on top of the situation could have and would have prevented all this BS from going on. an involved and honest/reasonable trainer would have could have ended this the second she realized the rider was not a good fit for my horse. the horse was great with her, fantastic but she wasn’t going to do him any justice! No more trials to anyone…not worth the risk and if I get the impression and trainer OR buyer don’t have a real idea of how this business works, or a real understanding of how important good communication is, there will be NO business dealings. Sometimes they sneak through…but I do my home work more now than ever…I’ll turn down a sale before I let one of my horses OR a customers horse just go off to who ever - in the end it could back to bit me in the behind anyway so why not be super careful.

[the_old_grey_mare]

I am deliberately horse shopping without a trainer and loving it. A knowledgable friend is helping me look and has been invaluable in pre-screening some of the sellers and evaluating the horses. My emphasis is on finding a horse with personality and talent. Once I find a horse that is a possibility, I bring it out on approval, then have my trainer check it out for a set fee. Both horses that I have brought back got the trainer’s full approval, but unfortunately did not pass the PPE. This process is taking time, yes, but I do not have a trainer breathing down my neck trying to push me into buying a horse that is right for the trainer, but not right for me, nor do I have an impatient trainer saying that I need to increase my budget because the right horse hasn’t instantly appeared. My friend and I are having fun, we are developing better evaluation skills and my confidence is growing. As an FYI, the only times that horses have been obviously misrepresented have been by professional hunter/jumper trainers.