Does anyone know anything about Paris-Texas, the clone of QDR? He was born in 2005 so should be able to have foals on the ground by now. That’s one I’d be VERY interested in.
I’ll admit I am not a fan of cloning, but still would like to know what is going on. Do any of these clones have foals on the ground? It would be a tidge too soon for the young Gemini I guess. I would feel the Chapots are certainly going to breed him - when? - to their/test mares? With more interest in the Bonne Nuit line than Gem Twist himself - makes sense???
Thinking about the clones - none in particular - if one turns out to have faults - would still be bred? Well in the case of Gemini they wanted the BN bloodlines. Is it possible a clone could after all not be stallion quality?
Be a nice horse , but if one did not know the pedigree/history would not be kept intact? One would assume a clone would not have such faults. But who really knows?
Poetin’s clone has had a filly
http://www.veulenveilingprinsjesdag.nl/en/paarden/2010/PoemedeHusZ.html
The first clone, Prometea, had a colt.
Scamper’s clone has produce a few foals.
I’d bet there are a few others as well.
It will be interesting to see what the Warmblood registries do with Gemini.
[QUOTE=JB;5438940]
Poetin’s clone has had a filly
http://www.veulenveilingprinsjesdag.nl/en/paarden/2010/PoemedeHusZ.html
The first clone, Prometea, had a colt.
Scamper’s clone has produce a few foals.
I’d bet there are a few others as well.[/QUOTE]
The cloned Pieraz sired a filly in 2008:
[QUOTE=JB;5438940]
Poetin’s clone has had a filly
http://www.veulenveilingprinsjesdag.nl/en/paarden/2010/PoemedeHusZ.html[/QUOTE]
That’s a surrogate in the video, right?
The cloned ET might have been the first sport horse, and he’s got at least one foal from a couple of years back.
[QUOTE=JWB;5438478]
Does anyone know anything about Paris-Texas, the clone of QDR? He was born in 2005 so should be able to have foals on the ground by now. That’s one I’d be VERY interested in.[/QUOTE]
Wow they cloned him?? Man I hope they also clone Darco, Ratina z and Royal Kaliber too. Not to mention many others!
Found another photo of Gemini.
http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/15452/Equine-Cloning-The-Goal-Is-Breeding-Not-Performance
I read the cloning article also there and was rather surprised to learn that Auburn has had some clones - but that only 43 pct were normal. The others required surgery. I admit to being embarassed after typing a prior post asking about possible defects in clones. It appears that does happen and would have to assume those foals would not be considered breeding material regardless of bloodlines.
It has absolutely been seen that clones have more problems as newborns than the ‘normal’ population. It is recommended that clones are foaled out in a clinic situation as the likelihood that they will need intervention is high. Immediately and later on with angular limb issues.
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;5439093]
It will be interesting to see what the Warmblood registries do with Gemini.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Just pondered this with Greg Best last weekend.
[QUOTE=lisa;5441451]
Agreed. Just pondered this with Greg Best last weekend.[/QUOTE]
The problem with Gemini is that unless they accept him AS Gem Twist, and Gem Twist’s papers as his, Gemini is an unregistered horse. If they accept Gem Twist’s papers, he was still never inspected, so Gemini would have to go thru an inspection. Then would they accept Gem Twists performance? If one of the Warmblood registries want to give him papers, his sire and dam (Gem Twist’s sire and dam) were never inspected.
Lots and lots of questions, one of which is do we see new rules to accomodate these types of horses?
and if not, do we really want to lose these bloodlines from the European registry base?
GT was an American horse so why on earth would you worry about putting him in a European registry?
Aren’t the Chapots using the Continental Studbook?
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think they ever bothered with any of the Euro-based registries with their other wonderful stallions.
I just think it would be a shame that his bloodlines could not be used all over the world. Europe is always searching for the next great TB stallion, especially the jumper people.
A registry is just papers. Given that the this horse’s pedigree has a lot of proven performance blood…and he is a clone of a superior performance horse…he will get more than enough people willing to breed to him regardless of registries/brands.
And if he does produce good jumping horses…he will get more.
Lack of a registry wouldn’t stop me from breeding to him with the right mare.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;5441838]
A registry is just papers. Given that the this horse’s pedigree has a lot of proven performance blood…and he is a clone of a superior performance horse…he will get more than enough people willing to breed to him regardless of registries/brands.
And if he does produce good jumping horses…he will get more.
Lack of a registry wouldn’t stop me from breeding to him with the right mare.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree, but it is also about his breeding value, long term to the sport, than just making money from the breedings. If he is a great sire, he is a resourse.
I thought Zangersheide would take him, but I don’t know what would be involved precisely. The practical thing would be to take him based on Gem Twist’s performance record.
[QUOTE=Harold;5439748]
It has absolutely been seen that clones have more problems as newborns than the ‘normal’ population. It is recommended that clones are foaled out in a clinic situation as the likelihood that they will need intervention is high. Immediately and later on with angular limb issues.[/QUOTE]
Hmm. So “epigenetics” anyone? Of course, the whole question of “what is a gene in the first place” is a problem.
I’m kind of curious about the way the horse breeding world handles “genomic” breeding. So in the PH breeding issue, there is an article about clones… and then another about the genetics of coat color. There’s a huge gap in our understanding, IMO. I’m curious about what you guys think.
Here’s some historical stuff:
One of the first ways that Mendelian geneticists tried to “sell” their knowledge as better than that of traditional students of pedigrees was to talk about coat color and promise that the genetic basis of “economic characters” (meaning the stuff people cared about like milk production in dairy cattle, rate of weight gain in meat animals) was coming soon. This was 1920 or so.
So, a century later, all PH can tell us is about clones and the genetics of coat color?
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;5441838]A registry is just papers. Given that the this horse’s pedigree has a lot of proven performance blood…and he is a clone of a superior performance horse…he will get more than enough people willing to breed to him regardless of registries/brands.
And if he does produce good jumping horses…he will get more.
Lack of a registry wouldn’t stop me from breeding to him with the right mare.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. But the registry of clones does create a huge problem in the long term. Leaving population genetics and inbreeding aside, it’s hard to see how the offspring of the clone will be sold as breeding stock. Those do need to be registered, right? Most people won’t clone, so the sons and daughters of Gemini Twist who reproduce the old fashioned way will need some way of being incorporated into a breed’s (or breeds’) pedigree. Otherwise, how do you make pedigrees for their offspring (the grandbabies of the clone)?
Sorry to bore you with the history question. I’m working on an academic history of this for someone, and very little about this history is known… at least to them!
I seriously doubt if there will be problems in the future. If the clones produce superior horses they will be incorporated in the registries with in the second generation. The genetics have performance behind them.
Zangersheide has already agreed to accept clones and foals of clones.
As to epigenetics, it would appear that they are only important in the first generation–at least as far as our current knowledge goes. So for breeding, they shouldn’t matter. That’s one of the benefits of the way the TB system works. Even if a horse is a dud as a performer or has bad conformation, it can still become a very superior sire. Blandford is the perfect example. His pasterns were too upright and he broke down early in his racing career. The pasterns were apparently inherited from his grandfather. Yet Blandford is one of the greatest of all TB sires, and his quality has persisted for generations. But he’d have never been given the opportunity to breed in Germany because of his legs.
[QUOTE=Jumper_SoCal;5439359]
Wow they cloned him?? Man I hope they also clone Darco, Ratina z and Royal Kaliber too. Not to mention many others![/QUOTE]
Ratina Z has already been cloned more than once. Darco and Royal Kaliber died at a time before gene banking was really going, and there are no clones.
