Gemini Twist aka Gem Twist

[Zaffiro_Farm]

[QUOTE=not again;5441621]
GT was an American horse so why on earth would you worry about putting him in a European registry?
Aren’t the Chapots using the Continental Studbook?
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think they ever bothered with any of the Euro-based registries with their other wonderful stallions.[/QUOTE]

Gemini is registered with the AES for Europe.

The Chapot family has an open invitation for Gemini to be licensed for breeding in the Continental Studbook whenever they are ready. He is still young, but he will be licensed the day that they ask.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

@vineyridge;5441983

Zangersheide has already agreed to accept clones and foals of clones.

So they will accept them using the cloned horse’s papers? The clone would still need to go thru inspection + xrays and scoping, and then use their counterpart’s performance? Or would the inspection part be waived due to performance?

@Zaffiro Farm;5442941

Gemini is registered with the AES for Europe.

Do you know what registries accept the AES?

[Jumper_SoCal]

[QUOTE=Zaffiro Farm;5442910]
Ratina Z has already been cloned more than once. Darco and Royal Kaliber died at a time before gene banking was really going, and there are no clones.[/QUOTE]

Well I know that Rebel z is Ratina’s full brother, but I didn’t know she was cloned.

Royal Kaliber died within the last 10 years, I’m surprised they didn’t think of cloning him.

Darco just makes me sad because he is so amazing. Why did they clone QDR and not Darco is my question?

What about Chin Chin, Carthago, Argentinus and Guidam?

[Zaffiro_Farm]

[QUOTE=Jumper_SoCal;5443343]
Well I know that Rebel z is Ratina’s full brother, but I didn’t know she was cloned.

Royal Kaliber died within the last 10 years, I’m surprised they didn’t think of cloning him.

Darco just makes me sad because he is so amazing. Why did they clone QDR and not Darco is my question?

What about Chin Chin, Carthago, Argentinus and Guidam?[/QUOTE]

Most of those died before cloning was really offered commercially by Viagen or just as it was being offered. Gemini is the first American sport horse done.

Nobody really expects their horse to die while attending the Olympics like Royal Kaliber did, so why would you plan for it? However, today you can gene bank a top horse for very little money. Guidam was also an out of the blue thing. He was not very old. Anyway, not everyone wants to do it. The most aggressive by far has been Zangersheide Stud.

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

[QUOTE=Jumper_SoCal;5443343]
Well I know that Rebel z is Ratina’s full brother, but I didn’t know she was cloned.

Royal Kaliber died within the last 10 years, I’m surprised they didn’t think of cloning him.

Darco just makes me sad because he is so amazing. Why did they clone QDR and not Darco is my question?

What about Chin Chin, Carthago, Argentinus and Guidam?[/QUOTE]

I would say that some owners just don’t care to persue cloning. There are certainly some that feel very strongly that is isn’t the right way to go.

[Janet]

@Fairview Horse Center;5441845

I totally agree, but it is also about his breeding value, long term to the sport, than just making money from the breedings. If he is a great sire, he is a resourse.

I am confused. You say that you agree witH BFNE:

he will get more than enough people willing to breed to him regardless of registries/brands.

And if he does produce good jumping horses…he will get more.

Lack of a registry wouldn’t stop me from breeding to him with the right mare.

IF he produces good jumping horses, people will breed their mares to him, and he WILL bring “breeding value, long term to the sport”, and “If he is a great sire, he is a resourse”

With or without papers.

[mvp]

@vineyridge;5441983

I seriously doubt if there will be problems in the future. If the clones produce superior horses they will be incorporated in the registries with in the second generation. The genetics have performance behind them.

Zangersheide has already agreed to accept clones and foals of clones.

As to epigenetics, it would appear that they are only important in the first generation–at least as far as our current knowledge goes. So for breeding, they shouldn’t matter. That’s one of the benefits of the way the TB system works. Even if a horse is a dud as a performer or has bad conformation, it can still become a very superior sire. Blandford is the perfect example. His pasterns were too upright and he broke down early in his racing career. The pasterns were apparently inherited from his grandfather. Yet Blandford is one of the greatest of all TB sires, and his quality has persisted for generations. But he’d have never been given the opportunity to breed in Germany because of his legs.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;5443225]So they will accept them using the cloned horse’s papers? The clone would still need to go thru inspection + xrays and scoping, and then use their counterport’s performance? Or would the inspection part be waived due to performance?

vineyridge, now I’m confused. Can you help?

It seems to me that “epigenetics,” while real, is at present a relative term. Looking at phenotype alone (and complete gene sequence might not help), how do you sort out “genetic” from “epigenetic”?

So, if Original Stallion is great. His cloned son (F1 generation) phenotypically not great, then what can you expect for the F2 generation?

To me, this leads to the performance testing question. I think the cloned F1 should be tested. Otherwise, you are assuming that genotype and phenotype correlate. The fact that they don’t was a part of the reason for performance testing. I know TB racing breeders (and mare owners) don’t think so. I see your point with Blandford.

Thanks so much. You guys are all a great help.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

[QUOTE=Janet;5443444]
I am confused. You say that you agree witH BFNE:

IF he produces good jumping horses, people will breed their mares to him, and he WILL bring “breeding value, long term to the sport”, and “If he is a great sire, he is a resourse”

With or without papers.[/QUOTE]

I agree that he will get plenty of “breedings” if he is a quality sire, but he will not get the top jumper breeders in Europe if the babies are not registered. He will not become part of the long term world breeding system for breeding top level horses.

He WILL get plenty of American breeders, but most (all?) of the International jumpers, and almost all of the 3’6"+ Hunters come from Europe as we don’t have the system here to develop and market the youngsters to be attractive to UL riders.

[andy.smaga]

[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;5444045]
I agree that he will get plenty of “breedings” if he is a quality sire, but he will not get the top jumper breeders in Europe if the babies are not registered. He will not become part of the long term world breeding system for breeding top level horses.

He WILL get plenty of American breeders, but most (all?) of the International jumpers, and almost all of the 3’6"+ Hunters come from Europe as we don’t have the system here to develop and market the youngsters to be attractive to UL riders.[/QUOTE]
It is correct to assume that a stallion that isn’t registered will not have the Euro breeders attention, but Gemini will have success in Europe because foals will be able to register with Z or AES, and maybe more registries will open their books in the future. (Continental Studbook will also be an option when they are part of the WBFSH)

[mvp]

To be clear: No registry currently admits cloned animals to its studbooks?

The AQHA has been considering the possibility for the last two or three years, right? What are the kinds of questions they are asking?

And some organizations will issue papers or breeding licenses to cloned stallions?

The same will be true for mares, even though females also transmit their mitochondrial DNA-- not the standard stuff kept on chromosomes in the cell nucleus?

You must admit, this is a really exciting and important moment for horse breeding.

[baywithchrome2]

@Fairview Horse Center;5444045

I agree that he will get plenty of “breedings” if he is a quality sire, but he will not get the top jumper breeders in Europe if the babies are not registered. He will not become part of the long term world breeding system for breeding top level horses.

According to the COTH article, Joris de Brabander of Stal De Muze is already interested in Gemini Twist. When I read that, my ears perked up. It doesn’t get much better in international jumper breeding! Among others, Stal De Muze stands Nabab de Reve and Vigo d’Arsouilles and from their breeding program, they’ve bred the likes of Eric Lamaze’s Narcotique II de Muze and Spy Coast’s Werly Chin de Muze. The list of international competition horses is long from Stal de Muze. I would take this as a serious sign that Europe is indeed very interested in pursuing Gemini Twist.

[Waterwitch]

@mvp;5443901

To me, this leads to the performance testing question. I think the cloned F1 should be tested. Otherwise, you are assuming that genotype and phenotype correlate. The fact that they don’t was a part of the reason for performance testing. I know TB racing breeders (and mare owners) don’t think so. I see your point with Blandford.

Remember that pedigree and genotype are not the same thing. Pedigree lets you identify the source for all of the genetic material an animal may have, but genotype tells you what is actually there - what genes were actually inherited by the horse from the available genes present in its parents.

Liz

[sniplover]

[QUOTE=mvp;5444529]
To be clear: No registry currently admits cloned animals to its studbooks? [/QUOTE]

False. Zangersheide and AES have registered and approved cloned stallions, such as the E.T. FRH clone (who appears to be standing to the public in Belgium for the 2011 season)

[Jasmine]

mvp, Epigenetics measures the level of methylation on CpG islands in the DNA code. How many are methylated can change how certain things are expressed.

[stolensilver]

And to expand on Jasmine’s post epigenetics controls how much genes are expressed so, for example, if a horse’s genome contained the genes which produce the physical and mental make up that turn that horse into an outstanding showjumper, if some of those genes are not expressed due to epigenetics then the horse will not be an outstanding jumper because some of the essential qualities needed have been hidden.

Unfortunately Vineyridge is mistaken about the heritability of epigenetic changes. They are heritable and can be passed on to offspring for many generations. The most generations showing persistent epigenetic changes so far is 14 and that paper is a few years old now. It may be 20+ generations that are still showing an inherited epigenetic change.

So what this is saying is that the qualities an animal (or person or insect) possess totally depends upon how their genes are expressed. And what controls which genes are expressed and how strongly they are expressed is epigenetics which can be inherited for many, many generations. Epigenetic change does not alter DNA, it alters the methylation of the DNA molecules which effectively switches the genes on and off or up and down. It HAS to have a massive effect on cloned individuals but because this science is so new we don’t know how it will affect clones.

[Coffee]

Can you cite the studies you’re referring to?

[stolensilver]

8. S.L. Rutherford, S. Lindquist, “Hsp90 as a capacitor for morphological evolution,” Nature, 396:336-42, 1998.

9. V. Sollars et al., “Evidence for an epigenetic mechanism by which Hsp90 acts as a capacitor for morphological evolution,” Nat Genet, 33:70-4, 2003.

[not_again]

Lots of great information here. What is increasingly obvious however, is that the “major” and “reputable” registries have lost control of the market. They no longer lead trends and identify successful bloodlines, but rather follow after.
Licensing stallion threads invariably point out the stallions who Almost Didn’t or Didn’t get licensed as having gone onto the most influencial careers as a sire.
The great debate here seems to be twirling around “If Only” such a stallion was licensed then we could guarantee we will know if he is a great sire.
The great shift will continue as long as breeders societies hang on to paper results rather than performance results and breeding shed success.

[Coffee]

Thanks stolensilver. I just read the abstract of the first study and the gist of that is that there are several underlying genetic mechanisms present that allow the organism to make up for a problem that occurs in development and return to a normal state. The problem described in the paper, that of a protein disabled by mutation or pharmacologically impaired, itself sounded like it would be a genetic issue outside of the laboratory.

I will look at the second one later.

[jumper27]

For those of you who would like to see confo shots:

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2019147320096891592AHllcR

This is the best I have on my computer.

ETA:These are from August 2010.