Lovely, Jumper27
[QUOTE=not again;5446628]
Lots of great information here. What is increasingly obvious however, is that the “major” and “reputable” registries have lost control of the market. They no longer lead trends and identify successful bloodlines, but rather follow after.
Licensing stallion threads invariably point out the stallions who Almost Didn’t or Didn’t get licensed as having gone onto the most influencial careers as a sire.
The great debate here seems to be twirling around “If Only” such a stallion was licensed then we could guarantee we will know if he is a great sire.
The great shift will continue as long as breeders societies hang on to paper results rather than performance results and breeding shed success.[/QUOTE]
this is a VERY interesting thread.
to address the above: it seems to me - a total ammie and not a breeder, that the registries are now reacting to the market (ie what sells for big $$), instead of progressing the sport horse.
question on clones in general: if x owns horse when it dies, can y create a clone and own it? or is the owner on DOD the owner of the clone?
also: the WBFSH stated that they thought that registries would have to take clones, but they suggested treating each as a separate and unique horse, an that they should all be designated as clones (my guess would be instead of Wolkentanz I & Wolkentanz II, you would have Wolkentanz CI, Wolkentanz CII, etc)
http://www.cryozootech.com/index.php?m=breeder_opinion&d=breeder_opinion&l=en
[QUOTE=mbm;5501224]
the WBFSH stated that they thought that registries would have to take clones, but they suggested treating each as a separate and unique horse[/QUOTE]
but then the question would be, does the clone have to be perforance tested? My guess is that the owner of the clones would not want to be sending their boys down that road.
A clone should be a breeding animal and not a sport horse, IMHO.
For this reason there is no interest to performance test the clone, what breeders are seeking is the DNA of the “original”, being Gem Twist, Calvaro V, E.T., Ratina, etc.
[QUOTE=andy.smaga;5501578]
A clone should be a breeding animal and not a sport horse, IMHO.
For this reason there is no interest to performance test the clone, what breeders are seeking is the DNA of the “original”, being Gem Twist, Calvaro V, E.T., Ratina, etc.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
Gorgeous confo shot jumper27.
Check out the upright scapula. Great jumpers come in all different shapes.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5501921]
Check out the upright scapula. [/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t bank on that straight shoulder. :winkgrin: Gemini is shown with his leg a bit back under him, and his weight rocked forward - exactly what it takes to make a good angled shoulder appear straight.
[QUOTE=andy.smaga;5501578]
A clone should be a breeding animal and not a sport horse, IMHO.
For this reason there is no interest to performance test the clone, what breeders are seeking is the DNA of the “original”, being Gem Twist, Calvaro V, E.T., Ratina, etc.[/QUOTE]
but isnt there a huge amount of money in sport?
also, it would be so interesting to see how a clone would perform compared to its original model…
[QUOTE=mbm;5502038]
also, it would be so interesting to see how a clone would perform compared to its original model…[/QUOTE]
That has been done some in racing mules. I believe 2 clones of a sucessful racing mule both finished 1st when entered in the same race (individual heats).
Here is the story about them winning their heats. http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/news/story?id=2469720
[QUOTE=Fairview Horse Center;5502015]
I wouldn’t bank on that straight shoulder. :winkgrin: Gemini is shown with his leg a bit back under him, and his weight rocked forward - exactly what it takes to make a good angled shoulder appear straight.[/QUOTE]
He does have a straight shoulder. That’s not the only confo shot of him that I’ve seen, and the way he’s standing isn’t affecting his shoulder angle much. An upright scapula like that is good for getting the knees up past horizontal.
Anyone who rides or breeds jumpers knows that, or should know that. A sloping shoulder works well too, obviously, if the horse has enough engine that he doesn’t need to tuck to an extreme extent.
Gem Twist had both the engine and the excellent tuck. 
Many top jumpers have long, upright scapulae.
Besides front limb style, upright scapulae are thought to contribute to the braking ability of the front end that is required to create vertical displacement of the horse’s mass, enabling the horse to catapult the front end off the ground to gain enough height to clear the fence.
Yes, I know, but standing them “over the shoulder” like he is does make an angled shoulder appear upright. To evaluate that, I would like to see a photo of him with him not standing over his shoulder.
I would just like to note that the stance in the photo is not arranged in any particular way to get him to look any particular way conformation-wise. Yes, they wanted a confo shot of him, but he is quite full of himself. Basically, getting him to stand still for a photo is the goal.
I didn’t think it was done in any special way, just trying to get them to stand with a leg somewhat in each corner is a real challenge - especially if they see you have a camera. :lol:
It actually looks like it was taken to showcase his lovely head, and expression, and it does, not his body from that angle. Body pictures are taken off the center of the barrel.
[QUOTE=jumper27;5503333]
I would just like to note that the stance in the photo is not arranged in any particular way to get him to look any particular way conformation-wise. Yes, they wanted a confo shot of him, but he is quite full of himself. Basically, getting him to stand still for a photo is the goal. :)[/QUOTE]
He is beautiful. There was an article in COTH a few weeks ago showing face shots of both Gemini and Gem Twist.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5503451]
He is beautiful. There was an article in COTH a few weeks ago showing face shots of both Gemini and Gem Twist.[/QUOTE]
I have a picture of Gem from 2005 and a picture of Gemini from when he was a yearling. Their heads and expressions are identical! It’s actually kind of freaky!
Re: the shoulder angle, etc., I have always heard that it’s the humerus (and the angle of the shoulder relative to the humerus) that is the important thing in jumpers. Gem Twist (and other top jumpers) have often had a long, relatively steep shoulder, but they have also had a long relatively steep humerus as well, and an open angle between the two. Not sure what optimal degree of angle is the “magic number” ;), but these shoulder characteristics seem to be consistent in many top jumpers, so it must impart (as Waterwitch mentioned) some increased ability to “push the horse’s mass off the ground” in order to lift the front end so that the hind end is then able to push off with maximum power. And the open angle increases the shoulder freedom, enabling the horse to rotate the “arm” up and out for maximum reach over the big jumps.
Gemini Twist seems to have almost identical shoulder conformation to Gem Twist–not surprising, and it’s visible even in this pic of him standing under himself in front (they actually did a conformation study of top jumpers and their conformation in a book, had them all shot from the side, and compared and analyzed their shoulder/hip angles; damned if I can remember the name of it!)
Dr. Doolittle, we must have seen the same book, and I can’t remember which one it is either.
The key to a good shoulder is the range of motion, which would result from the length and angles of the two shoulder bones working together.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;5503754]
Dr. Doolittle, we must have seen the same book, and I can’t remember which one it is either.[/QUOTE]
Maybe it’s articles by Judy Wardrope, very interesting,
http://www.jwequine.com/index.html
Thanks for the link. It sounds like what I read was by her. This morning I was just looking at an article by her in the Jan/ Feb issue of Warmbloods Today.
My understanding is that a long fairly upright humerus is a desired feature in both dressage horses and jumpers. So like Dr. D said, it is the angle of the scapula and thus its relationship to the humerus that is different.
