He is only the donor of nuclear genetics. The egg donor provides the mitochondria. I know that no one has mentioned the egg donor for Gemini, but I remember hoping that the “creator” made sure that the egg came from Gem Twist’s immediate FF. Of course, the clone stallion will not pass on anything to his get but the nuclear genetics, but I’ve read that the sperm mitochondria can be preserved in offspring in very rare instances–and we still don’t know enough, AFAIK, to be certain exactly how else mitochondria affects the genome.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7141155]
He is only the donor of nuclear genetics. The egg donor provides the mitochondria. I know that no one has mentioned the egg donor for Gemini, but I remember hoping that the “creator” made sure that the egg came from Gem Twist’s immediate FF. Of course, the clone stallion will not pass on anything to his get but the nuclear genetics, but I’ve read that the sperm mitochondria can be preserved in offspring in very rare instances–and we still don’t know enough, AFAIK, to be certain exactly how else mitochondria affects the genome.[/QUOTE]
For crying out loud stop with all the mtDNA nonsense. Stallions do not pass mtDNA to their offspring so it doesn’t matter where Gemini’s came from.
I said “only in rare instances”, didn’t I? And I will stick to the lack of knowledge point. You’re a scientist, and but very dogmatic for one.
After all, no one knew about epigenetics until fairly recently and thought that the genes controlled everything. Isn’t “junk” DNA study fairly new as well?
After spending the last three months researching the newly emerging study of epigenetic reprogramming, I would be wary of breeding to a clone. There is still so very much we dont know about the human genome (and the epigenome!) and I personally dont see the overriding benefit of breeding to a clone vs. another non-cloned proven stallion.
BUT with that said, I do understand the interest in the bloodlines. AND as long as people get into it fully educated and with realistic expectations, I don’t see any harm. It will be interesting to see the results several generations from now.
http://www2.jabsom.hawaii.edu/Grad_Physiol/Files/data/Yanagimachi_Publications/44.pdf
http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/safetyhealth/animalcloning/ucm124803.htm
[QUOTE=TKR;7141008]
Bornfreenowexpensive – your comment intrigues me as a breeder – since you knew Gem Twist, what kind of mare do you feel would work well with him? I don’t object to a clone and understand what the gene pool brings to the table. I have some old, very precious Thoroughbred lines that I’ve used for years in my own Thoroughbreds, so I am well informed on what his represent. Thanks!
PennyG[/QUOTE]
I’m a TB person (so take that in context). My personal horses are all OTTBs. Gem was opinionated. And very allergic to wood. He was hotter and on the spooky side-but not crazy. He could spin out from under you in a split second-especially when feeling up. He was very forward in a good way and catty besides being scopey. VERY smart.
He was a good professionals horse. Not nuts or crazy but not a packer type. For the show hunter market…he’d bred more derby horse types not AO types.
For mares, I don’t think I would breed in to strong willed opinionated sort (which rules out most of my mares).
And for event horses, I don’t think he has the mind we want to be able to do the dressage and be rideable when super fit. Plus he was so allergic to wood I would think he may throw too careful of a horse for eventers…but maybe not with the right mare. I’d want her movement very good though.
But for a jumper…I’d just pick a mare with good conformation and a very level mind–tractable and you should get a really nice horse. I didn’t know as much about conformation when I knew him but I just remember he had a very good hind end (the whole family did) and over all was a nice horse. Pretty straight forward TB build of the classic sort. I think you can see that in his clone.
I think opinionated is a gentle word for a horse whose vet had to call the barn help to twitch or sedate before he even pulled into the driveway. :lol:
[QUOTE=Manahmanah;7151059]
I think opinionated is a gentle word for a horse whose vet had to call the barn help to twitch or sedate before he even pulled into the driveway. :lol:[/QUOTE]
He really REALLY hated the vet. You did have to catch him before the vet came in the barn. Like I said…really really SMART horse. But he wasn’t like that for most things. He liked his peppermints and generally was pretty easy to handle…but no, not your lesson horse forgiving packer type. He certainly wasn’t the most difficult horse there to get to and from the ring or handle in general—as long as you were not a vet. He knew his job very well.
Ha, I have one who hates/hated the vet. She is much better now but I will tell you she was lip chained for a great variety of vet work even shots and coggins. She knew from the moment their car hit the driveway. Easy as pie in every other way, so he isn’t the only one!
[QUOTE=wcporter;7141230]
After spending the last three months researching the newly emerging study of epigenetic reprogramming, I would be wary of breeding to a clone. There is still so very much we dont know about the human genome (and the epigenome!) and I personally dont see the overriding benefit of breeding to a clone vs. another non-cloned proven stallion.
BUT with that said, I do understand the interest in the bloodlines. AND as long as people get into it fully educated and with realistic expectations, I don’t see any harm. It will be interesting to see the results several generations from now.
http://www2.jabsom.hawaii.edu/Grad_Physiol/Files/data/Yanagimachi_Publications/44.pdf
http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/safetyhealth/animalcloning/ucm124803.htm[/QUOTE]
That second article was particularly interesting. And this paragraph of particular concern to me:
In addition to incomplete or inappropriate epigenetic reprogramming, the relatively low success rate of cloning has been hypothesized to be related to changes in the pattern of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) transmission following SCNT (Hiendleder 2007; St. John et al. 2005; Spikings et al. 2006). Because sperm deposit very few of their own mitochondria31 during sexual reproduction, mtDNA in developing embryos tends to come almost exclusively from the oöcyte and tends to be maternally inherited. During the SCNT process, if intact donor cells are used as nuclear donors, following fusion with the enucleated oöcyte, the resulting embryo may have mtDNA from both the donor and recipient cells i.e., mitochondrial heteroplasmy. If the nuclear and mitochondrial DNA originate from different sources, the normal coordination of expression of nuclear and mtDNA may be altered, resulting in altered or impaired energy production in the cell or developing organism.
So, this is particularly interesting to me as Ive not looked into cloning or ET in the equine, but - when/ at exactly what stage - is implantation done in either?
So it isn’t just me wondering about mitochondria in clones. 
ROTFL!
For us non scientific types how exactly is a clone made? From beginning to end?
If you used the egg (or embryo since I don’t know what parts are used) from the dam of the horse to be cloned and then used the material of the donor of the horse to be cloned to ‘stuff’ the cell with, (for lace of a better word), would the resulting clone truly be identical with all the proper mtDNA as the original donor of the cloned horse?
So…am I correct on my laymen’s understanding that there is the potential for “more than normal” Maternal genetic information to be incorporated into the cloned critter?!
And also an abnormal arrangement/altering of the development of said critter may result?
Since most of the “big deal” clones are male, in order to recover a gelded stallion’s DNA, this is bad news indeed!
No thank you!
No, you are not correct.
Please correct me!
I am trying to interpret the paragraph outlined above in Sonesta’s post!
The article was trying to describe hypotheses for why cloning often fails. It’s in reference to mitochondrial DNA, which is not passed on by the male anyway, and affects the energy production of cells. So there may be problems with the fertilized egg developing properly into a normal organism.
[QUOTE=Sonesta;7151847]
That second article was particularly interesting. And this paragraph of particular concern to me:
In addition to incomplete or inappropriate epigenetic reprogramming, the relatively low success rate of cloning has been hypothesized to be related to changes in the pattern of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) transmission following SCNT (Hiendleder 2007; St. John et al. 2005; Spikings et al. 2006). Because sperm deposit very few of their own mitochondria31 during sexual reproduction, mtDNA in developing embryos tends to come almost exclusively from the oöcyte and tends to be maternally inherited. During the SCNT process, if intact donor cells are used as nuclear donors, following fusion with the enucleated oöcyte, the resulting embryo may have mtDNA from both the donor and recipient cells i.e., mitochondrial heteroplasmy. If the nuclear and mitochondrial DNA originate from different sources, the normal coordination of expression of nuclear and mtDNA may be altered, resulting in altered or impaired energy production in the cell or developing organism.[/QUOTE]
This is why you would clone a gelding to get offspring but not necessaily expect the resulting clone to be a performer himself. If you want performance or a broodmare try to get the egg donor from the same mareline.
quick explanation of cloning: http://www.clonesafety.org/cloning/facts/process/
sperm cells are not used as cloning cells - so having a old dubious straw of darco’s is not going to give us the right type of cell to use for cloning.
The successful clones, that I know, did not have the cross contamination of the recipient oocyte’s mtDNA. I’m thinking that a cross contaminated embryo might be one of the many unsuccessful cloning attempts that don’t produce a viable clone.
In Embryo Transfer (ET) an entire fertilized embryo is flushed from the pregnant donor mare into a seive (usually between day 6 to 8 after ovulation). Then the entire fertilized embryo is transfered to a recip mare. Fingers crossed, this embryo embeds in the recip mare’s womb and grows into a foal. the recip mare’s DNA doesn’t enter into the embryo.
Stallion service from a Clone is usually reflected in price. Impossible to get Chellano Z’s service would be many thousands of euro; his clone Chellano Alpha Z’s service is 400 euro.
Olympic Gold medalist Sapphire (BWP mare by Darco) has a couple of clones, who are now producing foals. I don’t know if her own oocytes were used as recipients to avoid cross contamination of the mtDNA. (not to be confused with clones from holsteiner stallion sapphire, who represented peurto rico in olympics and who is also cloned)
