Gemini Twist aka Gem Twist

[TrueColours]

I think that I - personally - would have a problem breeding to any Gem Twist clone, because he set the bar SO high, I dont think any clone would fill the shoes he left behind. I think the “perception” is that you are breeding to the REAL Gem Twist and you envision Gem Twist himself, vis the clones offspring, in the jumper ring for many years to come, all performing to the standard that he set. As such, it would be impossible to live up to those dreams and standards and I think there will be a lot of disappointed Gemini Twist offspring owners. The offspring may well be VERY good but I dont think that any will come close to Gem Twist himself

Will be interesting to see and to reflect back on this thread a decade or two down the road and see how they all fared in the Big Ring

Did any of them even come close to being a replica of Gem, with the best trainer and rider money could buy?

[vxf111]

I looooooove Laura. But she’s not exactly known for sitting on a horse and quieting it down and this is a young, green, stallion. Behaving a little nuts sounds par for the course for things at the moment and I wouldn’t judge too harshly.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7140663]
I think that I - personally - would have a problem breeding to any Gem Twist clone, because he set the bar SO high, I dont think any clone would fill the shoes he left behind. I think the “perception” is that you are breeding to the REAL Gem Twist and you envision Gem Twist himself, vis the clones offspring, in the jumper ring for many years to come, all performing to the standard that he set. As such, it would be impossible to live up to those dreams and standards and I think there will be a lot of disappointed Gemini Twist offspring owners. The offspring may well be VERY good but I dont think that any will come close to Gem Twist himself

Will be interesting to see and to reflect back on this thread a decade or two down the road and see how they all fared in the Big Ring

Did any of them even come close to being a replica of Gem, with the best trainer and rider money could buy?[/QUOTE]

But how is this perception any different than breeding to ANY stallion? Does any breeder really choose a stallion for her broodmare thinking the result is going to be an EXACT replica of the chosen stallion?

No one should have any expectations as far as a clone of Gem Twist “filling his shoes”, because the purpose of the clone is to preserve the bloodline, and Gem Twist never did that himself. There are no shoes to fill.

Breeding to the clone of Gem Twist should not come with any higher expectations than those would be by breeding to Gem Twist himself had he been left intact. You still have to take into consideration the quality of the mare, how appropriate is the match, the raising of the resulting foal, and the quality of training that is provided when the time comes.

The unrealistic expectations that the general public has when it comes to the purpose of cloning is amazing to me. Once the clone is on the ground, it’s a horse just like the original was. And once it gets to breeding age, it’s STILL a horse. It’s not some super hero equine with magical powers; it’s just there to pass on genetic material that would be otherwise unavailable.

[Mardi]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7140684]

The unrealistic expectations that the general public has when it comes to the purpose of cloning is amazing to me. Once the clone is on the ground, it’s a horse just like the original was. And once it gets to breeding age, it’s STILL a horse. It’s not some super hero equine with magical powers; it’s just there to pass on genetic material that would be otherwise unavailable.[/QUOTE]

^^^ This.

Clones repeat the pedigree, not the show record.

[Kryswyn]

Speaking of clones, isn’t Dr Betsee Parker’s clone of her show pony ready to be competing. I know she’s had tons of lovely ponies, but this was a small gray that I think her daughter did her first few leadline classes on. Blue Something? Something Blue?

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7140663]
I think that I - personally - would have a problem breeding to any Gem Twist clone, because he set the bar SO high, I dont think any clone would fill the shoes he left behind. I think the “perception” is that you are breeding to the REAL Gem Twist and you envision Gem Twist himself, vis the clones offspring, in the jumper ring for many years to come, all performing to the standard that he set. As such, it would be impossible to live up to those dreams and standards and I think there will be a lot of disappointed Gemini Twist offspring owners. The offspring may well be VERY good but I dont think that any will come close to Gem Twist himself

Will be interesting to see and to reflect back on this thread a decade or two down the road and see how they all fared in the Big Ring

Did any of them even come close to being a replica of Gem, with the best trainer and rider money could buy?[/QUOTE]

This is the case with any extraordinary performing stallion, like Secretariat in the field of racing.

It doesn’t mean there aren’t genetic advantages that the show jumper may have from conformation to temperament to muscle twitch fiber variation.

You can’t breed in training, but you never could.

On the other hand Gem Twist’s trainer(s) had many go through their hands, but only one Gem Twist.
As the line(s) Roi Herode, Double Jay, etc. is somewhat rare, who else would you breed to to annex those genes in that combination?

[TrueColours]

But how is this perception any different than breeding to ANY stallion? Does any breeder really choose a stallion for her broodmare thinking the result is going to be an EXACT replica of the chosen stallion?

No one should have any expectations as far as a clone of Gem Twist “filling his shoes”, because the purpose of the clone is to preserve the bloodline, and Gem Twist never did that himself. There are no shoes to fill.

Breeding to the clone of Gem Twist should not come with any higher expectations than those would be by breeding to Gem Twist himself had he been left intact. You still have to take into consideration the quality of the mare, how appropriate is the match, the raising of the resulting foal, and the quality of training that is provided when the time comes.

The unrealistic expectations that the general public has when it comes to the purpose of cloning is amazing to me. Once the clone is on the ground, it’s a horse just like the original was. And once it gets to breeding age, it’s STILL a horse. It’s not some super hero equine with magical powers; it’s just there to pass on genetic material that would be otherwise unavailable

Okay - I KNOW that I am comparing apples to oranges here, but here goes …

When someone breeds to Benicio, or Argentinus or Chin Chin or Totilas - they are breeding for the “whole package”. They have assessed the show record, the progeny (if possible), the rideability, the bloodlines, the conformation and temperament, etc and they go in with “Eyes Wide Open” and have laid out all of the variables on the table for assessment and know, pretty well, what they should be getting in their foal

Are clones the same as the “Real Thing” or are they a caricature so far removed from actual reality???

Take a look at this link:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2133552/Valeria-Lukyanova-pictures-Real-life-Barbie-seeks-worlds-convincing-doll.html

Is she REALLY Barbie or has she tried to convey the image that she is instead?

The clones just strike me - personally - as an elaborate (and expensive!) ploy to play on someone’s emotions and recollections of a famous individual, playing into their desire to get one “just like him / her” but its not based or rooted in reality at all

Whats next down the road? Clones of Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie to name a few, that will donate genetic material to eager and wealthy buyers, so they can have an offspring that looks like someone famous??? But isnt?

I know in Gem’s case any offspring was impossible without cloning but I still just wrestle with whether this is a positive step forward in evolution or one giant step backwards …

[vxf111]

Truecolors, you do realize the clone carries the genetic material of the donor, right?! Doesn’t just look like the donor-- generically IS the donor?! If you breed to Gemini or if you had bred to Gem Twist you get the exact same genetic material.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Well…to me Gemini is a bit different in that his family line is hard to find to breed on. But regardless…I personally am not considering breeding to a clone. Gemini’s stud fee is higher than I want to spend and having known Gem very well, he isn’t what will match with my mares for what I’m trying to produce. Honestly…I view cloning a horse as a HUGE waste of money. Even one as special as Gem. But that is my view and what others want to do with their money is their business. I really don’t find it morally offensive or have major concerns as I don’t see it becoming common or having a huge impact.

[TrueColours]

Truecolors, you do realize the clone carries the genetic material of the donor, right?! Doesn’t just look like the donor-- generically IS the donor?! If you breed to Gemini or if you had bred to Gem Twist you get the exact same genetic material.

Yes - I do. But I still cant accept / grasp that you arent breeding to the carefully orchestrated “illusion” and not the “reality” of a clone that never accomplished and probably never would accomplish what Gem himself did

Maybe a decade or two down the road, once the clones and their offspring actually prove themselves in the breeding shed and the show ring I would view them differently and more favorably but right now I really have a problem in viewing them as anything but an overall illusion

[BravAddict]

[QUOTE=ynl063w;7140684]
But how is this perception any different than breeding to ANY stallion? Does any breeder really choose a stallion for her broodmare thinking the result is going to be an EXACT replica of the chosen stallion?

No one should have any expectations as far as a clone of Gem Twist “filling his shoes”, because the purpose of the clone is to preserve the bloodline, and Gem Twist never did that himself. There are no shoes to fill.

Breeding to the clone of Gem Twist should not come with any higher expectations than those would be by breeding to Gem Twist himself had he been left intact. You still have to take into consideration the quality of the mare, how appropriate is the match, the raising of the resulting foal, and the quality of training that is provided when the time comes.

The unrealistic expectations that the general public has when it comes to the purpose of cloning is amazing to me. Once the clone is on the ground, it’s a horse just like the original was. And once it gets to breeding age, it’s STILL a horse. It’s not some super hero equine with magical powers; it’s just there to pass on genetic material that would be otherwise unavailable.[/QUOTE]

THANK you!

[vxf111]

You keep blurring genotype and phenotype. Unless biology works differently for you there is no “illusion”-- the clone is genetically the same.

[JB]

How is breeding to Gemini any different from breeding to a young stallion with fantastic, proven bloodlines, who was injured and never really got into the show ring? Or breeding to the new up and comer 3yo stallion who hasn’t even had a chance to get to the show ring?

At some point it just doesn’t matter what a stallion does in the show ring because you can’t clone that - not literally, and not figuratively. You’re taking the chance that he can pass on that ability. And Gemini is the blood of GT whose pedigree is full of proven performers and producers, so the odds are stacked in your favor

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=Mardi;7140696]
^^^ This.

Clones repeat the pedigree, not the show record.[/QUOTE]

And even proven show horses only pass on their genetics. Not their training, nor their experiences. So, whether or not a clone “proves” itself is irrelevant. It possesses and passes on exactly what the donor did and would have.

We look for proven stallions because we want to know the genetic potential of their offspring. Gemini IS proven. He IS Gem Twist, genetically. He won’t have the same experiences, so his temperament and behavior won’t be identical, jumping style may even differ as a result of training, injuries, etc., but neither he nor Gem can pass on their experiences or training. Riding and showing him is simply an entertaining exercise at this point and may give us some insight into the nature vs. nurture debate.

The important thing is, he will supply his foals with exactly what Gem would have had he not been gelded, nothing less and nothing more.

[TKR]

Bornfreenowexpensive – your comment intrigues me as a breeder – since you knew Gem Twist, what kind of mare do you feel would work well with him? I don’t object to a clone and understand what the gene pool brings to the table. I have some old, very precious Thoroughbred lines that I’ve used for years in my own Thoroughbreds, so I am well informed on what his represent. Thanks!
PennyG

[TrueColours]

You keep blurring genotype and phenotype.

Yup. You may very well be correct in that statement

I guess I am one individual that wants to see some proof and some history before jumping on the " breeding to a clone" bandwagon

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7141020]
Yup. You may very well be correct in that statement

I guess I am one individual that wants to see some proof and some history before jumping on the " breeding to a clone" bandwagon :)[/QUOTE]

What proof do you want that is different than any stallion without lots of offspring?!

[magicteetango]

Would you never breed to a full brother of a GP horse then? Or a full sister? We breed to replicate those bloodlines, which is exactly what Gemini does… Except unlike a full sibling it’s an exact of those genetics.

I would assume the horse was cloned to make the bloodlines available, not to fill any shoes competitively.

[TrueColours]

Would you never breed to a full brother of a GP horse then? Or a full sister? We breed to replicate those bloodlines, which is exactly what Gemini does… Except unlike a full sibling it’s an exact of those genetics.

I would assume the horse was cloned to make the bloodlines available, not to fill any shoes competitively.

Very logical. Very correct. I cant disagree with a thing you have stated …

[vxf111]

If you don’t like the idea of clones for some moral reason, I get that (I don’t agree but I get that). But questioning “what you get” makes no sense. You get , genetically, just the same as from the donor stallion.