Genuine seller having bad experience with PPE. How to prevent this in the future?

[ihearttbs]

I (informally) left a local vet practice myself and my clients had used for 2-3 years and switched to a different practice along with all of my clients. I never talked to the old practice about it, but they were really pushy about trying to convince myself and my clients to do extra and unnecessary vet services to a point where I felt like they were all about the money.

Anyway, fast forward 3 years, I am selling a horse and the old practice ends up being selected by buyer to do ppe. I was there for most of the ppe and nothing abnormal came up that was visible to my eye, and I’ve seen many ppes. Yet the vet painted this horse as being lame and underweight, and said he was not suitable for the job the buyer wants even though he’s actively and successfully doing that job. There were several errors in the report that had twisted or missed information I had given the vet. The language was extremely harsh. It came as a huge surprise to me and just seemed offbase. Vet who performed it struck me as being inexperienced with the breed and the discipline in question.

Has anything like this happened to anyone else? Honestly just feeling so deflated after how much work I’ve put into this horse to help him, and I feel like giving up.

[trubandloki]

@ihearttbs

I (informally) left a local vet practice myself and my clients had used for 2-3 years and switched to a different practice along with all of my clients. I never talked to the old practice about it, but they were really pushy about trying to convince myself and my clients to do extra and unnecessary vet services to a point where I felt like they were all about the money.

Anyway, fast forward 3 years, I am selling a horse and the old practice ends up being selected by buyer to do ppe. I was there for most of the ppe and nothing abnormal came up that was visible to my eye, and I’ve seen many ppes. Yet the vet painted this horse as being lame and underweight, and said he was not suitable for the job the buyer wants even though he’s actively and successfully doing that job. There was no objective information except for one mildly positive flexion. I can’t help but think that the vet intentionally killed the sale for me as a way of getting back at me for taking away business from them.

Has anything like this happened to anyone else?

That seems like a stretch to me, unless the owner of that practice has a long history of being vindictive to the point of being ridiculous.

Was your business so much that you gave them a big financial hit? Most good practices do not want their clients to leave but are busy enough that if one barn left, things would go on as normal.

Did this particular vet even know you had a history with them? Does this vet have a history of being very difficult with PPEs?

[ihearttbs]

It’s a small practice, this particular vet is new and was not one that I used at the old place so I don’t know how she typically is with ppes, I imagine she’s relatively inexperienced.

[mmeqcenter]

IME the vet doesn’t let on a whole lot of their findings/opinions to the seller at the PPE. They remain very professional and tight-lipped, as they should. They’re being paid by the buyer, not the seller, and the information is for the buyer.

If she’s a new vet to the practice you left, I can’t imagine why she would want to sabotage your sale. Seems like some paranoia, to me. But you never know

[OverandOnward]

If it were me, I would call the owner or lead person at the old practice (not the PPE vet), not to rant and rave, but just to have a conversation. ‘I respect that vets have the duty of their honest opinion to the buyer, but I take care of my horses and am diligent about matching horses and buyers. My years of experience with horses, buyers and PPE’s have me questioning what I heard this vet say. I just wanted to hear from you that you your practice encourages sound evidence-based assessments, and that you send a vet with experience in the discipline of the buyer.’

Of course it is going to come across that you are the pissy one. That’s ok, that bridge was already burned long ago. Keep your tone impersonal and matter-of-fact. Focus objectively on your experience, and the PPE’s vet’s approach to the PPE, and possibly to a discipline that the PPE vet may not know as well as she thinks she does.

I would justify the call as ‘I just wanted to hear from you how your practice wants your vets to approach the way the vet communicates during a PPE, because I’ve attended a lot of them, I thought this one was off, but maybe I’m missing something.’

Or whatever, but the key is ‘I want to hear from you’. That is, this isn’t you berating without listening, you really want to hear from what the head person has to say. They may be dismissive in which case there isn’t more to say. But they may say something interesting.

That said – What I would really want from this conversation is to trigger another conversation inside the practice (that’s internal so I won’t be there for it, of course). Between more experienced vets and the new vet. The nuances of communications during a PPE vs other types of exams. Taking the buyer’s discipline into account. Basically, is the vet really up for this particular PPE discipline, before the vet accepts it. In the interests of continuing to build confidence in the practice, not erode it. Because sometimes a prospective buyer also thinks a PPE vet is off base, is overstepping and going a bit far with an opinion about a discipline they don’t know well. Although we don’t know that is the case this time.

You are in a bit of a bind, OP, that future buyers may choose the same PPE practice/vet. But of course sellers everywhere can end up in these situations near a vet(s) they don’t have much confidence in, that may end up with the PPE assignment. I honestly don’t know how to handle that, other than to recommend at least three other vets that you would be ok with. That way the buyer has a choice and you aren’t trying to exercise too much control. Of course the buyer may choose someone else, but at least you’ve given them some phone numbers.

[trubandloki]

@OverandOnward

If it were me, I would call the owner or lead person at the old practice ( not the PPE vet), not to rant and rave, but just to have a conversation. ‘I respect that vets have the duty of their honest opinion to the buyer,

This vet visit was paid for by the buyer so this owner (the OP of this thread) really has no right to make the vet office give them information.

The OP could hire their own vet to do a PPE on this horse to get an idea what their vet finds wrong, or the OP can ask the buyer to share the whole PPE with them. It would not be wrong for the buyer to expect the OP to pay for part of it in exchange for the information.

I also think it would be very wrong for the OP to burn a bridge that is likely not burnt at all at this time. You never know when you might need a vet practice.

[OverandOnward]

IMO. The thing of ‘for the job the horse is being purchased to do’ – how much does any PPE vet really know about that job? For instance, there are vets who have experience with hunter/jumper, but not with the rather different needs of eventing. In eventing horses are traveling at speed over often-hard ground for minutes at a time. They need a better foot, but not that round fancy body with a particular shape of withers. Has this PPE vet had experience with this type of activity, especially long-term wear & tear? Needs for some things are greater, other needs are less – and I haven’t met many vets in my area who know the difference, as eventing is not a big sport where I live.

Also, if a buyer has their trainer involved in the selection, there are some opinions that belong more to the trainer than the PPE vet. Some of the finer points of movement, and the overall appearance of the conformation (beyond soundness). Some PPE vets think that is their territory as well.

But healthy, productive horses can have bad conformation. Will particular flaws affect the horse’s performance in this discipline? Certain flaws won’t matter, others will. Does this horse’s conformation mean it won’t do well for the owner in this discipline? That can be a subjective evaluation by people who know the judging for the discipline.

The vet’s role in a PPE can be a bit fuzzy, when it goes beyond “this is a healthy horse suitable for X types and level of work” into evaluating if, other than overall suitability, health and soundness, this horse is a good match for a future in a particular discipline. IMO.

[ihearttbs]

The ppe was shared with me by the prospective buyer. The wording is very strong and heavy on opinion/subjective information, more than I’ve ever seen in a ppe document. It literally states that the horse is too underweight and undermuscled to perform the job the buyer wanted him for. He is young and still has muscle to put on but I have worked very hard to get him to a good weight, or wouldn’t even be marketing him

[OverandOnward]

@trubandloki

This vet visit was paid for by the buyer so this owner (the OP of this thread) really has no right to make the vet office give them information.

That misses what I was suggesting. Not asking for ‘information’. Rather, sharing an observation about the way a PPE was conducted, and asking only for the clinic’s feedback on that general observation.

That is a fair conversation to have. It does not step over any bounds, if it is done in a matter-of-fact, sharing way. Any well-managed clinic will welcome the chance to forestall negative feelings about them, and to build bridges to possible future business.

Silence is not a good position to maintain when one anticipates possible future interactions, after an uncomfortable experience that leaves doubts.

The phone call might initiate some great feedback that could even change OP’s perception of the PPE. The clinic may welcome their chance to give that feedback.

The clinic doesn’t know what opinions of it are out there, unless there is communication. One thing no business wants is negative opinions, circulating in the informal network, that they know nothing about, and don’t have the chance to answer to.

Communications to build and maintain relationships in any community makes for a much more copacetic environment for everyone. Vs. everyone nursing their private misgivings about others. That’s the purpose of this phone call. Communication is a chance to clear things up, and give both parties a chance to make things better for themselves going forward. That’s the spirit of the call.

[ihearttbs]

I don’t need any information. The buyer shared the ppe report with me.

[beowulf]

We tend to put professionals on a pedestal, but they are just as capable of human emotions like spite, jealousy, or cruelty as the rest of us.

[OverandOnward]

@ihearttbs

The ppe was shared with me by the prospective buyer. The wording is very strong and heavy on opinion/subjective information, more than I’ve ever seen in a ppe document. It literally states that the horse is too underweight and undermuscled to perform the job the buyer wanted him for. He is young and still has muscle to put on but I have worked very hard to get him to a good weight, or wouldn’t even be marketing him

If I were the clinic manager, this is exactly the kind of thing I would want to know and discuss within the clinic. Especially with vets newer to PPE’s. Not to chastise anyone, but to discuss and share different approaches and perspectives, among the vets, to the purpose of the PPE.

This isn’t just about one PPE. That’s the point I’m making. This is a clinic that wants to continue building it’s presence and credibility with the local horse community. Not unintentionally poking holes in it.

This is part of the business – and a clinic is a business, as this one obviously sees itself, with all of the extras.

[trubandloki]

@ihearttbs

Yet the vet painted this horse as being lame and underweight, and said he was not suitable for the job the buyer wants even though he’s actively and successfully doing that job. There was no objective information except for one mildly positive flexion.

@ihearttbs

The buyer shared the ppe report with me.

How was the “mildly positive flexion” described in the PPE report?

Last time I did a PPE there was one vet in my part of the world who was known to find things not suitable in basically every horse they did a PPE on. If you used this vet, you knew going in that you would be told every tiny thing that might ever happen because of that thing the vet found and how that thing might make the horse at some point down the road not suitable for the job intended.
Their way of describing stuff always made things sound very negative.

Maybe this new vet is like that.

@ihearttbs

The wording is very strong and heavy on opinion/subjective information, more than I’ve ever seen in a ppe document. It literally states that the horse is too underweight and undermuscled to perform the job the buyer wanted him for. He is young and still has muscle to put on but I have worked very hard to get him to a good weight, or wouldn’t even be marketing him

The buyer is paying the vet for their opinion.

Even you think the horse needs more muscle.

It really does sound like you are being a little paranoid about this vet practice.

[ihearttbs]

It’s quite possible it was just a mistake and inexperience on the vets part. In any case it was not a “normal” ppe based on the 50 or so I have seen across multiple states and practices. A lot of young horses need more muscle. This doesn’t make them unsuitable for most jobs, it is expected that they will continue to develop. It’s the unsuitability and the underweight parts that get me, and the horse was body scored incorrectly.

[knic]

Would you share current pics of the horse? I’ve seen some horses show up bought off video that were “doing the job” that I am shocked the vet didn’t flag BCS and muscling being so poor as part of PPE.

[cayuse]

We all want to think the best of the people we hire, but I knew of one vet who was pretty hostile towards ex clients.

[ihearttbs]

[OverandOnward]

I won’t say the horse is ‘fat’, exactly … but IMO horse looks great! Of course that’s my perspective and others might see it differently.

If I were the clinic manager, I would want to see those photos and the ppe. I would want to know. As part of managing the clinic, now and for the future.

You might not need to say anything. Just respectfully ask the management to at least review the photos and ppe internally, as to the service they are providing the horse community. They don’t even have to get back to you, you just want them to be aware.

To the practice manager/overseer, whoever that is. Not to the ppe vet (who already knows anyway).

[GraceLikeRain]

It feels like a stretch that a small practice was so jaded about a single client leaving that they would put a new vet up to the task of failing a PPE to get back at that former client.

We are in a vet heavy area but even an entire show barn leaving wouldn’t create such a gap that a practice would care as long as the barn didn’t badmouth them to others on the way out.

[mmeqcenter]

I understand that, I was referring to your statement

@ihearttbs

I was there for most of the ppe and nothing abnormal came up that was visible to my eye, and I’ve seen many ppes.

Just because the vet didn’t mention anything to you in person at the PPE, doesn’t mean they didn’t find anything.

Weight is very subjective, and (as we all know) a hot topic full of disagreements. Even between vets. If the vet is young and/or new, perhaps they come from a hunter background and still think a 7 on the Henneke scale is ideal. Now that I’ve seen the photos you shared, this is likely. The horse is under muscled, but not underweight. However, some people (yes, even vets) have a hard time differentiating. Further, a vet can’t (shouldn’t) provide an opinion on what a horse can or cannot do in the future, partially because that’s how you get sued. They can only provide an opinion on the horse as it exists in the moment, for the purpose the buyer told them they want to buy the horse for. If the horse is under muscled and the buyer told the vet they want the horse to go around 3’6", yeah, it’s not surprising they said the horse is unsuitable.

There’s lots of things that could be happening here other than the vet sabotaging your sale. Without knowing exactly what the buyer told the vet, and seeing the actual language of the PPE write-up, I’m not going to pass judgement on the vet.