George Morris on the SS list

[newtopicnewalter]

tweaking up SS:

(1) Parents need to teach their children, from the time they’re old enough to understand, which actions by adults are normal and safe and which are never to be tolerated (red light!). They need to have an escape plan, and to know they can ALWAYS bring even the slightest suspicion that someone’s a “little off” to YOU–and YOU WILL BACK THEM UP. 50 years ago we didn’t have that; today, we should. “Teach Your Children Well.” Way more effective than having some 4th party adjudicate the thing 51 years after the incident.

(2) Do not dump your kids off at the barn at 0800 and expect the management to entertain them for the next 10-12 hours. If your child is old enough and competent enough for a working student arrangement, that should be in writing with SS protocols incorporated so everyone understands the deal. Parents should not otherwise use the stable as an unpaid babysitting service. Idle hands are the devil’s workshop, and this eliminates opportunity to be “groomed” by any personnel not under direct supervision of trainer.

(3) For the love of God, STOP sexualizing children. The 12-year old daughter of two Yalies, one a clergyman, that I knew actually let their pubescent daughter run around in hot-pink tights with the word “JUICY!” embossed in rhinestones across the butt! A child doesn’t know any better, but parents should. Maybe the promotion of 9-year-old “drag queens” and Jon-Benet Ramsey style dress-up/makeup is not a good choice. Let’s stop promoting with our fashion dollars the “bimbo” culture and the idea that taking your clothes off for a camera lens, anyone’s lens, is EVER a good idea. Steaming manure like the “Good Boys” movie just released is beyond appalling; one more example of Hollywood’s race to the bottom of the muck-choked trough of so-called modern “culture.” Go read a synopsis if you haven’t yet heard of it, and protect your children from ideas like this that can’t possibly end well.

(4) Get rid of social media for impressionable youth entirely. A flip-phone will do fine for emergencies and calling home.
Parents are enabling all the pathologies that accompany unfettered, 24/7 internet access. Most adults can’t handle it, let alone youth.

(5) Raise your children with a sense of personal responsibility, which seems to have been replaced by “self esteem” and “activism.” You will be judged by your actions in the world both good and bad, as GHM is being judged now. Use the current news cycle as a teaching moment, and do not make excuses for anyone.

Here’s an alternative -

Teach adults that sex with children and teens is wrong, and within a coaching or mentoring situation, especially wrong.

Short, sweet, fits on a bumper sticker.

Puts the responsibility on the adult actor, not a minor, not a parent, not bystanders.

Just.don’t.have.sex.with.minors.

[AllOverFarm]

I noticed the safe sport overhaul go fund me has seemed to fizzle out at $3.100 of the $25k goal. I guess the 7k ISWG fb people aren’t that supportive of the over haul idea.
I noticed Elizabeth M donated some $.

[mvp]

@Crashing Boar

<<placing the onus on victims not to get victimized>>

It’s less probable you’ll be hit by a train if you don’t stand in the middle of the tracks, waving a “Vacancy!” flag.

<<text and Facebook>>

Never have used FB, and texting is a bane I actively avoid because it’s a PITA. Both media invite exactly the type of over-familiarity that has the potential to cause problems. Regular voice phone makes misunderstandings less likely, with e-mail reserved for more serious business matters with clients. Again, I’ve never had juniors so non-issue, though I well realize for many they must use these platforms, and that’s their choice.

But no kid taking a riding lesson is “standing in the middle of the tracks” and the “vacancy” flag either makes no sense or is incredibly sexist.

Which part of a kid being an athlete looks to you like signing up to be sexually exploited?

[Keep_it_Simple]

@newtopicnewalter

Here’s an alternative -

Teach adults that sex with children and teens is wrong, and within a coaching or mentoring situation, especially wrong.

Short, sweet, fits on a bumper sticker.

Puts the responsibility on the adult actor, not a minor, not a parent, not bystanders.

Just.don’t.have.sex.with.minors.

Exactly. The responsibility should not be on the minor. Children/minors have spoken up and it was ignored, by adults. The adults that talked about it, knew it happened and did nothing. It is the worst kept secret in the equestrian community.

Adults should not have sex with minors. Trainers should not have sex with their help/employees or their clients. It is unethical for doctors / lawyers/therapist to have sex with their clients, but equestrians do not want to be held to the same standard as other professions in the real world.

Adults should step up and do the right thing. It was known in many barns that trainers were having sex with their students. The wives knew, the clients knew and they did nothing to stop it. These adults were a instrumental in allowing the abuse to continue. Stop blaming the minor or the parent. Blame the person that did the heinous act.

[BigMama1]

@newtopicnewalter

Here’s an alternative -

Teach adults that sex with children and teens is wrong, and within a coaching or mentoring situation, especially wrong.

Short, sweet, fits on a bumper sticker.

Puts the responsibility on the adult actor, not a minor, not a parent, not bystanders.

Just.don’t.have.sex.with.minors.

Thank you

[atl_hunter]

@newtopicnewalter

Here’s an alternative -

Teach adults that sex with children and teens is wrong, and within a coaching or mentoring situation, especially wrong.

Short, sweet, fits on a bumper sticker.

Puts the responsibility on the adult actor, not a minor, not a parent, not bystanders.

Just.don’t.have.sex.with.minors.

Pedophiles can’t simply be taught that sex with children is wrong. Pedophilia is a psychiatric disorder. Even with treatment, chemical castration, and medication, they sometimes can’t stop. Some feel so terrible that they can’t control themselves that they commit suicide.

Most treatments don’t work to stop the pedophile’s attraction to children. Even chemically castrated men have been known to be released from prison and go on to rape another child. Social norms don’t allow us to simply lock afflicted individuals up, and they only get the limited restrictions of sexual offender status if they are caught and convicted. They are out and about in the world in search of their next victim.

There is definitely merit in teaching children how not to become victims, especially since the general aggressor for a child would be said pedophile. We simply cannot rely on “Just.don’t.have.sex.with.minors.” when dealing with people with psychiatric disorders who are unable to control themselves. When I see posts like yours, I have to wonder why you and counter the idea of teaching children how to defend themselves when such people exist in this world?

[BigMama1]

@vineyridge

You know, I want to raise something. There is a clear and distinct timeline for when the human body is mature enough for sex. For most of human history, once puberty was reached, a person was of marriageable age, had sex, and had children. We live in a society that glorifies sex.

I live in Mississippi, and we have oodles of teenaged pregnancies, probably the highest level in the nation. There have been pregnancies as young as 11, but 13 is rather common. Both boys and girls nationwide are sexually active at earlier and earlier ages, or so I’ve read. So we know that sex is part of teenaged life with or without contraception. Mentally most of them take it in stride. Here men and boys are considered men when they father a child, and most are rather proud of having done so; age of mother doesn’t matter to them.

If kids are screwing, why is it so wrong for them to screw with an adult? I can understand the authority aspect would make it wrong, but why is the authority aspect so much worse for under 18s than it would for adults?

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

Vineyriege I thought your comments on slavery and race last year were the most offensive things I’d ever seen on this board but congratulations. You’ve reached a new low.

[AllHorse]

@newtopicnewalter

Here’s an alternative -

Teach adults that sex with children and teens is wrong, and within a coaching or mentoring situation, especially wrong.

Short, sweet, fits on a bumper sticker.

Puts the responsibility on the adult actor, not a minor, not a parent, not bystanders.

Just.don’t.have.sex.with.minors.

This is meant to be interpreted as sarcasm right?
i mean, I don’t believe that young people should have to put in the driving seat on this issue or be put in a position of blame, but surely there can’t be many adults who don’t know that sex with minors is wrong?
The people that do this are predators, they’ve got a ‘problem’, they get a buzz out of what they do, they have zero desire to self control their urges because they get pleasure out of exploiting young people for their own gratification.

[Pennywell_Bay]

@vineyridge

If kids are screwing, why is it so wrong for them to screw with an adult? I can understand the authority aspect would make it wrong, but why is the authority aspect so much worse for under 18s than it would for adults?

Bolded: the authority aspect is putrid from both an adult and minor perspective. Imbalance of power relationships are banned or frowned upon or have to be declared in most workplaces.

And adult, with life experiences, can still struggle with the emotional, mental (sometimes physical) aspect of these relationships. Adults sometimes struggle with “normal” relationships intricacies- let alone throw in the authority.

A child does not have the capacity to be able to process the emotions, leverage the feelings that come with a sexual relationship (which is why many abused children end up as substance addicts).

People (most) look down on and won’t breed a yearling horse or 8 month old dog because of the physical toll- but yeah- sex with kids is OK. :rolleyes:

CB- parents need to up their game, there is no doubt. The rest of your rant is just hogwash. Abusers find ways to manipulate and control despite peoples’ best efforts to be aware.

Some of the posts on this thread, the dressage thread and FB ISWG group are most disturbing.

My daughter is 11. Some of her friends in PC are 13-16 and up. I looked at the group this weekend and I can not imagine any one of them being emotionally mature enough to be in a sexual relationship- let alone with a freaking adult. The one that has been having sex she since was 15 (with a boy from school) sends sexy pictures on the phone, grades are up and down depending on if she is still “with” the boy or not. So yeah- NO.WAY. IN. HELL they should be with an adult. On some level you can mitigate that all kids can be stupid with each other. And adult should no even be in that sexual equation.

The fact that you even bring that is mind boggling, as you are a thoughtful and informed poster in terms of horse knowledge.

Generally- you are part of the problem by turning a blind eye, normalizing child/minor sex, and making excuses.

(PS- gross)

[Alterforme]

& the sad thing is… what I’ve read about human trafficking & the dark web & exploitation of underage girls. It seems if these Predators can’t find an easy target, they will pay for one. Such evil in the world.

[Ghazzu]

@atl_hunter

Pedophiles can’t simply be taught that sex with children is wrong. Pedophilia is a psychiatric disorder. Even with treatment, chemical castration, and medication, they sometimes can’t stop. Some feel so terrible that they can’t control themselves that they commit suicide.

If they hide it and/or “feel so terrible”, then they know it is wrong.
Self-control or lack thereof is a separate issue.

There is definitely merit in teaching children how not to become victims, especially since the general aggressor for a child would be said pedophile. We simply cannot rely on “Just.don’t.have.sex.with.minors.” when dealing with people with psychiatric disorders who are unable to control themselves. When I see posts like yours, I have to wonder why you and counter the idea of teaching children how to defend themselves when such people exist in this world?

I suspect most of the trainers being spoken of on this thread would be able to exercise sufficient self-control if there were significant consequences to their actions. They wouldn’t fit the pedophile profile.
At this point, many of them seem to put sexual abuse with minors on the same level as stealing a doughnut from the box if nobody is watching.

[Jealoushe]

@vineyridge

You know, I want to raise something. There is a clear and distinct timeline for when the human body is mature enough for sex. For most of human history, once puberty was reached, a person was of marriageable age, had sex, and had children. We live in a society that glorifies sex.

I live in Mississippi, and we have oodles of teenaged pregnancies, probably the highest level in the nation. There have been pregnancies as young as 11, but 13 is rather common. Both boys and girls nationwide are sexually active at earlier and earlier ages, or so I’ve read. So we know that sex is part of teenaged life with or without contraception. Mentally most of them take it in stride. Here men and boys are considered men when they father a child, and most are rather proud of having done so; age of mother doesn’t matter to them.

If kids are screwing, why is it so wrong for them to screw with an adult? I can understand the authority aspect would make it wrong, but why is the authority aspect so much worse for under 18s than it would for adults?

WTAF!!

[atl_hunter]

@Ghazzu

If they hide it and/or “feel so terrible”, then they know it is wrong.
Self-control or lack thereof is a separate issue.

I suspect most of the trainers being spoken of on this thread would be able to exercise sufficient self-control if there were significant consequences to their actions. They wouldn’t fit the pedophile profile.
At this point, many of them seem to put sexual abuse with minors on the same level as stealing a doughnut from the box if nobody is watching.

Have you clinically diagnosed any of these trainers? I’m not sure I’d be so sure about your statement, but we can agree to disagree. One victim was a 13 year old in one of the cases. Sorry, but to compare that to “stealing a donut from the box” is significantly disparaging to that victim. Normal well adjusted men don’t sexually assault 13 year old girls. Maladjusted ones do. With regards to RG, perhaps he was groomed by JW and that had an impact on his behavior, but all of this is speculation because unless either of us has clinically diagnosed any of these people, we really can’t speak as to what the attraction is.

And yes, they are AWARE in some cases of what they are doing, but they cannot CONTROL themselves.

But back o the point, why are so many people so adamantly against educating children about inappropriate behavior from an adult? So many people have pointed out in various threads that the equestrian profession is ideal for a pedophile due to the large number of children participating. How can you be so sure that the people listed throughout these threads and who continue to abuse children are not, indeed, pedophiles?

[RainWeasley]

@Pennywell Bay

Bolded: the authority aspect is putrid from both an adult and minor perspective. Imbalance of power relationships are banned or frowned upon or have to be declared in most workplaces.

And adult, with life experiences, can still struggle with the emotional, mental (sometimes physical) aspect of these relationships. Adults sometimes struggle with “normal” relationships intricacies- let alone throw in the authority.

A child does not have the capacity to be able to process the emotions, leverage the feelings that come with a sexual relationship (which is why many abused children end up as substance addicts).

People (most) look down on and won’t breed a yearling horse or 8 month old dog because of the physical toll- but yeah- sex with kids is OK. :rolleyes:

CB- parents need to up their game, there is no doubt. The rest of your rant is just hogwash. Abusers find ways to manipulate and control despite peoples’ best efforts to be aware.

Some of the posts on this thread, the dressage thread and FB ISWG group are most disturbing.

My daughter is 11. Some of her friends in PC are 13-16 and up. I looked at the group this weekend and I can not imagine any one of them being emotionally mature enough to be in a sexual relationship- let alone with a freaking adult. The one that has been having sex she since was 15 (with a boy from school) sends sexy pictures on the phone, grades are up and down depending on if she is still “with” the boy or not. So yeah- NO.WAY. IN. HELL they should be with an adult. On some level you can mitigate that all kids can be stupid with each other. And adult should no even be in that sexual equation.

The fact that you even bring that is mind boggling, as you are a thoughtful and informed poster in terms of horse knowledge.

Generally- you are part of the problem by turning a blind eye, normalizing child/minor sex, and making excuses.

(PS- gross)

@vineyridge this is why.

Some parts of Mississippi, like parts here in Alabama, are a bit…behind the times. It often is more low-income, out-in-the-woods areas that tend to have younger and younger ages being sexually active (from what I’ve seen, anyways), though not always. Remembering back to when I was that age, I had some friends that were 13, 14, and were sexually active (with 13-16 year olds, sometimes older). The difference between me (not sexually active, basically a prude and very straight edge) and them basically boiled down to having parents and guardians that set good examples, paid attention to what I did, discouraged potentially harmful behavior, were very upfront about consequences. Those kids essentially ran around with no supervision, did drugs, cussed, drank, smoked, skipped school, and none of them have gotten very far in life, all are pretty miserable now. Their parents didn’t care, they skipped school so were bored and didn’t have any responsibilities. They were around others that did it. I don’t know how I came out the way I did from hanging out with them.

What I’m saying is, just because there are a lot of kids where you live that are doing it, doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a good or acceptable thing. Kids aren’t mature enough for serious relationships period, let alone sexual relationships. If a 13, 14 year old is not at the maturity level to have a steady, serious, committed relationship at that age, they are NOT ready for sex. Think of all of the “OMG but I LOVE him so much!”, only to have a crush on another guy the next week, tales from kids you hear allll the time.

Kids with kids is a big fat ole no. Kids with adults is just beyond inappropriate.

[Keep_it_Simple]

@atl_hunter

But back o the point, why are so many people so adamantly against educating children about inappropriate behavior from an adult? So many people have pointed out in various threads that the equestrian profession is ideal for a pedophile due to the large number of children participating. How can you be so sure that the people listed throughout these threads and who continue to abuse children are not, indeed, pedophiles?

I don’t think people are against educating children, nor have I see anyone say that. Children should be educated, most kids know what the adult is doing is wrong. Adults are and have been the problem. Adults need to step up and say something if they see something. It isn’t about being a responsible parent. It isn’t about teaching kid good touch/bad touch. These trainers groomed and manipulated minors, repeatedly. No one stood up for the kids.

[mvp]

@atl_hunter

Have you clinically diagnosed any of these trainers? I’m not sure I’d be so sure about your statement, but we can agree to disagree. One victim was a 13 year old in one of the cases. Sorry, but to compare that to “stealing a donut from the box” is significantly disparaging to that victim. Normal well adjusted men don’t sexually assault 13 year old girls. Maladjusted ones do. With regards to RG, perhaps he was groomed by JW and that had an impact on his behavior, but all of this is speculation because unless either of us has clinically diagnosed any of these people, we really can’t speak as to what the attraction is.

And yes, they are AWARE in some cases of what they are doing, but they cannot CONTROL themselves.

But back o the point, why are so many people so adamantly against educating children about inappropriate behavior from an adult? So many people have pointed out in various threads that the equestrian profession is ideal for a pedophile due to the large number of children participating. How can you be so sure that the people listed throughout these threads and who continue to abuse children are not, indeed, pedophiles?

I’m not against educating kids about what they can do to avoid being the one a sexual predator chooses as his prey. I just think that the implication that this is might be a solution of sorts is unethical since it hands the onus for preventing a crime to the person with the least power in the situation. IMO, the perpetrator and then by-standing adults, if not culture at large and the justice system, ought to be doing way more work to prevent sex crimes.

Also, I don’t think it’s a super-awesome idea to, again, say to children, “Because pedophiles are dangerous to you and cannot control themselves, we’ll do nothing to curtail their freedom but we advise you to be smart enough to evade them.” Just How TF is that supposed to help a kid?

It seems to me that this point of discussion gets to the heart of the misunderstanding about SafeSport’s mission and the discussion of rights to some kind of fair legal process. The goal was to afford some basic protection to children while trying to be as fair, thorough and even-handed as possible toward alleged sex abusers. But I’m OK with putting the protection of the most vulnerable among us at the top of the priority list. And this particular group of “most vulnerable” has gotten mistreated at the hands of individuals, society and the justice system for a helluva long time. They are owed better.

[limptoad]

Is there a Facebook group or any other formal forum of folks who stand behind Safesport in equestrianism? So far this is the least backlashy discussion I have found, which is astounding.

Those rallying around George can be pretty traumatizing to those of us who have experienced this ourselves. I’m interested in joining / promoting a group so survivors know they aren’t alone, but I’ll make one if I need to.

[vineyridge]

I am by nature an iconoclast.

I have come to believe that the vast majority of people simply accept the majority opinion without any analysis of the roots of the opinions. They are infinitely persuadable by well targeted propaganda that is widely spread, especially if 1) the people pushing a particular viewpoint have a personal interest in it–financial, power, self-protection, group advantage, career advantage; or 2) if the propaganda is a simple and easy appeal to primal emotions. The current term for this seems to be sheeple, and sheeple can very easily become mobs with all that mob implies. There are too many instances of this happening today.

I have and do not ever trust the positions that are the most popular and accepted. Just as an example, take my position on slavery. How many of the people who are disgusted by it read the WPA interviews of former slaves; how many of them have bothered to investigate the history of slavery worldwide; how many of them have investigated slavery in the modern world? How many of them understand that abolitionists before the Civil War made use of propaganda techniques? How many of them understand that anti-slavery in the nineteenth century West was premised on Christian beliefs and was not a worldwide phenomenon? Very few people are willing to challenge the “accepted wisdom” on slavery, and those that do are vilified. Human slavery is not a simple issue; if it were, it would not have persisted in human history until 150 years ago throughout the majority of the world.

When I was doing history, my first instinct was not to trust historians but to go to the source records themselves.

I will always challenge “accepted wisdom” because I will never trust it. It’s too easy to simply accept what well run PR campaigns push. I will always try to do my own independent investigation to find nuance. If something is too simple, then it’s likely someone’s propaganda. Always look for the roots and for who will benefit.

Safe Sport is the result of a horrific wrong, but like many human responses to horrific wrongs, it is the easy way out. It lacks nuance.

I also believe that human culture carries with it a huge inertia and that revolutions do not last. I believe that the vast majority of humans are deeply averse to fundamental change, and that cultural inertia will overcome revolution. My time scale is very, very long, and I believe in the pendulum. What comes will go. That which is worth saving because it is fundamentally in accord with human biology and human psychology will persist.

I will always challenge the basis of belief.

[darkmoonlady]

@vineyridge

I am by nature an iconoclast.

I have come to believe that the vast majority of people simply accept the majority opinion without any analysis of the roots of the opinions. They are infinitely persuadable by well targeted propaganda that is widely spread, especially if 1) the people pushing a particular viewpoint have a personal interest in it–financial, power, self-protection, group advantage, career advantage; or 2) if the propaganda is a simple and easy appeal to primal emotions. The current term for this seems to be sheeple, and sheeple can very easily become mobs with all that mob implies. There are too many instances of this happening today.

I have and do not ever trust the positions that are the most popular and accepted. Just as an example, take my position on slavery. How many of the people who are disgusted by it read the WPA interviews of former slaves; how many of them have bothered to investigate the history of slavery worldwide; how many of them have investigated slavery in the modern world? How many of them understand that abolitionists before the Civil War made use of propaganda techniques? How many of them understand that anti-slavery in the nineteenth century West was premised on Christian beliefs and was not a worldwide phenomenon? Very few people are willing to challenge the “accepted wisdom” on slavery, and those that do are vilified. Human slavery is not a simple issue; if it were, it would not have persisted in human history until 150 years ago throughout the majority of the world.

I will always challenge “accepted wisdom” because I will never trust it. It’s too easy to simply accept what well run PR campaigns push. I will always try to do my own independent investigation to find nuance. If something is too simple, then it’s likely someone’s propaganda. Always look for the roots and for who will benefit.

Safe Sport is the result of a horrific wrong, but like many human responses to horrific wrongs, it is the easy way out.

I also believe that human culture carries with it a huge inertia and that revolutions do not last. I believe that the vast majority of humans are deeply averse to fundamental change, and that cultural inertia will overcome revolution. My time scale is very, very long, and I believe in the pendulum. What comes will go. That which is worth saving because it is fundamentally in accord with human biology and common psychology will persist.

I will always challenge the basis of belief.

Or you’re just full of [it].

[Raine]

I don’t think there is anything wrong with teaching kids that certain actions by adults are not OK and should be reported. BUT, the onus still needs to be on teaching ADULTS to take action when a child reports!! It’s the sweep-it-under-the-rug culture in the adult world that needs to change.