George Morris on the SS list

[Jealoushe]

@vineyridge

I will always challenge the basis of belief.

again, WTAF!!

Plenty of us here on CoTH are happy to question the status quo…but some things, like child abuse and murder are NEVER OK. World beliefs be damned. SMDH

[Ghazzu]

@Keep it Simple

I don’t think people are against educating children, nor have I see anyone say that. Children should be educated, most kids know what the adult is doing is wrong. Adults are and have been the problem. Adults need to step up and say something if they see something. It isn’t about being a responsible parent. It isn’t about teaching kid good touch/bad touch. These trainers groomed and manipulated minors, repeatedly. No one stood up for the kids.

absolutely. Educating children is necessary, but not sufficient.

[Laurierace]

Hey anyone who doesn’t think letting their child be violated sexually isn’t worth the possibility of a ribbon doesn’t understand history! Good Lord Viney, I hope the FBI is compiling a file on your musings. Just when you think you hit the cellar you take it to a new low.

[mvp]

@vineyridge Look, you can knight yourself an iconoclast if you want. And you can talk about being a really great historian to me if you want; I have been a professional one. But I think you will find yourself on the wrong side of history if you mistake a tide of people who have had enough of letting sex crimes go unstopped and unprosecuted for all those folks being “sheeple.” Or would you similarly have the vast majority of historians who believe the Holocaust to have happened to be duped in a massive and widespread snow job?

Good lord. Sometimes Truth really does accrete out of lots and lots of well-reasoned agreements or research. Things do not, on the other hand, become categorically false because many people believe them.

[Stellaspeed]

@vineyridge

You know, I want to raise something. There is a clear and distinct timeline for when the human body is mature enough for sex. For most of human history, once puberty was reached, a person was of marriageable age, had sex, and had children. We live in a society that glorifies sex.

I live in Mississippi, and we have oodles of teenaged pregnancies, probably the highest level in the nation. There have been pregnancies as young as 11, but 13 is rather common. Both boys and girls nationwide are sexually active at earlier and earlier ages, or so I’ve read. So we know that sex is part of teenaged life with or without contraception. Mentally most of them take it in stride. Here men and boys are considered men when they father a child, and most are rather proud of having done so; age of mother doesn’t matter to them.

If kids are screwing, why is it so wrong for them to screw with an adult? I can understand the authority aspect would make it wrong, but why is the authority aspect so much worse for under 18s than it would for adults?

Mississippi, where they’re grateful that sheep and goats can’t talk.

[hoopoe]

I think the group is here. Never have I seen sure brave, well written truths. COTH proud

[Tiramit]

@vineyridge

You know, I want to raise something. There is a clear and distinct timeline for when the human body is mature enough for sex. For most of human history, once puberty was reached, a person was of marriageable age, had sex, and had children. We live in a society that glorifies sex.

I live in Mississippi, and we have oodles of teenaged pregnancies, probably the highest level in the nation. There have been pregnancies as young as 11, but 13 is rather common. Both boys and girls nationwide are sexually active at earlier and earlier ages, or so I’ve read. So we know that sex is part of teenaged life with or without contraception. Mentally most of them take it in stride. Here men and boys are considered men when they father a child, and most are rather proud of having done so; age of mother doesn’t matter to them.

If kids are screwing, why is it so wrong for them to screw with an adult? I can understand the authority aspect would make it wrong, but why is the authority aspect so much worse for under 18s than it would for adults?

Let’s try this with what you’ve said above:

You know, there are kids in my state who use drugs. We have oodles of teenaged drug users, probably the highest level in the nation. There have been druggies as young as 11, but 13 is rather common. Both boys and girls. They do drugs together. Some men and boys consider themselves cool when they do drugs, and most are rather proud of having done so; age of other users doesn’t matter to them.

If kids are doing drugs, why is it so wrong for them to do drugs with an adult?

Oh yeah, 'cause it’s against the law and could haunt them for the rest of their possibly short lives.

Do you see the stupidity in your words yet?

[AllOverFarm]

My middle school age daughters have been taught since kindergarten by the school system ( private catholic school) all the SS requirements.
If fact, I was kinda confused when they got to middle school & started having to email in assignments… why I was on the email with them & the teacher. (This was new to me since computers weren’t used like this when I was in school. I honestly wouldn’t have had my guard up with kids emailing assignments to teachers.)
My daughters told me it was school rules & it was kinda a light bulb moment for me. Honestly, the school was ahead of my parenting skills & looking out for my children’s best interest.
The teachers have always been very professional & it has carried over in how we as a family expect other professionals in our girls lives to act. Trainers have always set up lesson & ride times thru me.
At this point, I think if a teacher or trainer called my girls for a one on one conversation, the girls would find it uncomfortably creepy.
The schools SS type rules was very educational for me & the girls & changed how I parented. SS, I feel will help educate parents, kids & trainers on what is appropriate & what is not. Hopefully kids & parents & trainers will say something if they see something. People need creep radars.

[LaurieB]

@vineyridge

I am by nature an iconoclast.

I have come to believe that the vast majority of people simply accept the majority opinion without any analysis of the roots of the opinions. They are infinitely persuadable by well targeted propaganda that is widely spread, especially if 1) the people pushing a particular viewpoint have a personal interest in it–financial, power, self-protection, group advantage, career advantage; or 2) if the propaganda is a simple and easy appeal to primal emotions. The current term for this seems to be sheeple, and sheeple can very easily become mobs with all that mob implies. There are too many instances of this happening today.

I have and do not ever trust the positions that are the most popular and accepted. Just as an example, take my position on slavery. How many of the people who are disgusted by it read the WPA interviews of former slaves; how many of them have bothered to investigate the history of slavery worldwide; how many of them have investigated slavery in the modern world? How many of them understand that abolitionists before the Civil War made use of propaganda techniques? How many of them understand that anti-slavery in the nineteenth century West was premised on Christian beliefs and was not a worldwide phenomenon? Very few people are willing to challenge the “accepted wisdom” on slavery, and those that do are vilified. Human slavery is not a simple issue; if it were, it would not have persisted in human history until 150 years ago throughout the majority of the world.

When I was doing history, my first instinct was not to trust historians but to go to the source records themselves.

I will always challenge “accepted wisdom” because I will never trust it. It’s too easy to simply accept what well run PR campaigns push. I will always try to do my own independent investigation to find nuance. If something is too simple, then it’s likely someone’s propaganda. Always look for the roots and for who will benefit.

Safe Sport is the result of a horrific wrong, but like many human responses to horrific wrongs, it is the easy way out. It lacks nuance.

I also believe that human culture carries with it a huge inertia and that revolutions do not last. I believe that the vast majority of humans are deeply averse to fundamental change, and that cultural inertia will overcome revolution. My time scale is very, very long, and I believe in the pendulum. What comes will go. That which is worth saving because it is fundamentally in accord with human biology and human psychology will persist.

I will always challenge the basis of belief.

I don’t know that I can be any more appalled by these posts.

So your first argument was that kids screwing with adults is fine in Mississippi and should be elsewhere too. :eek:

Your second argument is the idea of slavery as a vile institution was just propaganda spread by abolitionists? :eek:

I feel sick that attitudes such as these still exist in the 21st century, much less here on COTH.

[RainWeasley]

@Stellaspeed

Mississippi, where they’re grateful that sheep and goats can’t talk.

snort

[Texarkana]

This thread got away from me for a couple days. I come back to learn certain “adults” think it’s okay for 11 year olds to have sex with adults if they want to and that abolishing slavery was the result of misguided propaganda.

The world has truly gone topsy turvy.

[BigMama1]

@vineyridge

I am by nature an iconoclast.

I have come to believe that the vast majority of people simply accept the majority opinion without any analysis of the roots of the opinions. They are infinitely persuadable by well targeted propaganda that is widely spread, especially if 1) the people pushing a particular viewpoint have a personal interest in it–financial, power, self-protection, group advantage, career advantage; or 2) if the propaganda is a simple and easy appeal to primal emotions. The current term for this seems to be sheeple, and sheeple can very easily become mobs with all that mob implies. There are too many instances of this happening today.

I have and do not ever trust the positions that are the most popular and accepted. Just as an example, take my position on slavery. How many of the people who are disgusted by it read the WPA interviews of former slaves; how many of them have bothered to investigate the history of slavery worldwide; how many of them have investigated slavery in the modern world? How many of them understand that abolitionists before the Civil War made use of propaganda techniques? How many of them understand that anti-slavery in the nineteenth century West was premised on Christian beliefs and was not a worldwide phenomenon? Very few people are willing to challenge the “accepted wisdom” on slavery, and those that do are vilified. Human slavery is not a simple issue; if it were, it would not have persisted in human history until 150 years ago throughout the majority of the world.

When I was doing history, my first instinct was not to trust historians but to go to the source records themselves.

I will always challenge “accepted wisdom” because I will never trust it. It’s too easy to simply accept what well run PR campaigns push. I will always try to do my own independent investigation to find nuance. If something is too simple, then it’s likely someone’s propaganda. Always look for the roots and for who will benefit.

Safe Sport is the result of a horrific wrong, but like many human responses to horrific wrongs, it is the easy way out. It lacks nuance.

I also believe that human culture carries with it a huge inertia and that revolutions do not last. I believe that the vast majority of humans are deeply averse to fundamental change, and that cultural inertia will overcome revolution. My time scale is very, very long, and I believe in the pendulum. What comes will go. That which is worth saving because it is fundamentally in accord with human biology and human psychology will persist.

I will always challenge the basis of belief.

I will always believe that adults coercing or forcing kids into sexual relationships is wrong.

[Midge]

@vineyridge

I have and do not ever trust the positions that are the most popular and accepted. Just as an example, take my position on slavery. How many of the people who are disgusted by it read the WPA interviews of former slaves; how many of them have bothered to investigate the history of slavery worldwide; how many of them have investigated slavery in the modern world? How many of them understand that abolitionists before the Civil War made use of propaganda techniques? How many of them understand that anti-slavery in the nineteenth century West was premised on Christian beliefs and was not a worldwide phenomenon? Very few people are willing to challenge the “accepted wisdom” on slavery, and those that do are vilified. Human slavery is not a simple issue; if it were, it would not have persisted in human history until 150 years ago throughout the majority of the world.

I don’t have to know every detail of the history of worldwide slavery to know it is wrong.

Once again, when you know better, you do better.

[anon40672407]

@vineyridge

You know, I want to raise something. There is a clear and distinct timeline for when the human body is mature enough for sex. For most of human history, once puberty was reached, a person was of marriageable age, had sex, and had children. We live in a society that glorifies sex.

I live in Mississippi, and we have oodles of teenaged pregnancies, probably the highest level in the nation. There have been pregnancies as young as 11, but 13 is rather common. Both boys and girls nationwide are sexually active at earlier and earlier ages, or so I’ve read. So we know that sex is part of teenaged life with or without contraception. Mentally most of them take it in stride. Here men and boys are considered men when they father a child, and most are rather proud of having done so; age of mother doesn’t matter to them.

If kids are screwing, why is it so wrong for them to screw with an adult? I can understand the authority aspect would make it wrong, but why is the authority aspect so much worse for under 18s than it would for adults?

You know, it’s perfectly possible for the human body to withstand frequent and brutal beatings. We don’t necessarily die, and heck, a broken arm here or there mends, eventually.

So, why don’t we just shrug our shoulders when beatings happen?

/s

[kirbydog]

@vineyridge

I am by nature an iconoclast.

I have come to believe that the vast majority of people simply accept the majority opinion without any analysis of the roots of the opinions. They are infinitely persuadable by well targeted propaganda that is widely spread, especially if 1) the people pushing a particular viewpoint have a personal interest in it–financial, power, self-protection, group advantage, career advantage; or 2) if the propaganda is a simple and easy appeal to primal emotions. The current term for this seems to be sheeple, and sheeple can very easily become mobs with all that mob implies. There are too many instances of this happening today.

I have and do not ever trust the positions that are the most popular and accepted. Just as an example, take my position on slavery. How many of the people who are disgusted by it read the WPA interviews of former slaves; how many of them have bothered to investigate the history of slavery worldwide; how many of them have investigated slavery in the modern world? How many of them understand that abolitionists before the Civil War made use of propaganda techniques? How many of them understand that anti-slavery in the nineteenth century West was premised on Christian beliefs and was not a worldwide phenomenon? Very few people are willing to challenge the “accepted wisdom” on slavery, and those that do are vilified. Human slavery is not a simple issue; if it were, it would not have persisted in human history until 150 years ago throughout the majority of the world.

When I was doing history, my first instinct was not to trust historians but to go to the source records themselves.

I will always challenge “accepted wisdom” because I will never trust it. It’s too easy to simply accept what well run PR campaigns push. I will always try to do my own independent investigation to find nuance. If something is too simple, then it’s likely someone’s propaganda. Always look for the roots and for who will benefit.

Safe Sport is the result of a horrific wrong, but like many human responses to horrific wrongs, it is the easy way out. It lacks nuance.

I also believe that human culture carries with it a huge inertia and that revolutions do not last. I believe that the vast majority of humans are deeply averse to fundamental change, and that cultural inertia will overcome revolution. My time scale is very, very long, and I believe in the pendulum. What comes will go. That which is worth saving because it is fundamentally in accord with human biology and human psychology will persist.

I will always challenge the basis of belief.

why are you not banned yet?

[dannyboy]

@ vineyridge

Good Lord - I thought you’d hit bottom with the post about child sex with adults being fine. I come back and find that now you’re spouting off about slavery in some sort of rant which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you have a point that I could dissect out of all this, I don’t want to bother. Take your long view of history and go back under your rock before the pendulum hits you in the head.

[anon6003733]

del

[AnastasiaBeaverhousen]

Some “parents” are fine with letting their children be sexual exploited.

When was about 18, a friend of mine who also liked horses, had a boyfriend who knew a man who had a western boarding and training barn.

The boyfriend took us over there one day to look around.

The man who owned the barn was supposed to meet us but it took him a while to come to the gate and he looked very red in the face and very disheveled. He told us he had been giving someone a lesson and it had run over.

Then we see a very pretty young girl about 17 or so, come out of the barn and she also looks very red in the face and disheveled. She’s not wearing riding apparel but short shorts a tank top, and Candies.

Boyfriend sees her and laughs and says.
“I wish she’d take lessons from me.”

My friend asks him what he means , and he says matter of fact
“He lets her board for free and gives her lessons in exchange for favors.”

My friend wants to know if her mother knows.

And he says “Sure, her mother is glad cause it’s saving her a lot of money.”

The man asked us both later if we wanted to take lessons.

That would be a big no.

[enjoytheride]

@dannyboy

@ vineyridge

Good Lord - I thought you’d hit bottom with the post about child sex with adults being fine. I come back and find that now you’re spouting off about slavery in some sort of rant which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. If you have a point that I could dissect out of all this, I don’t want to bother. Take your long view of history and go back under your rock before the pendulum hits you in the head.

Viny has stated her beliefs about slavery before which is what people remember and why someone said her recent post toped it. It was her belief that slaves had better lives as slaves then in Africa. She felt her own research proved that and the mainstream are just sheeple.

Personally I think Viny is an old lady alone in her house who has issues telling of her behavior is socially acceptable.

[DarkBayUnicorn]

I should’ve known better than to catch up on this thread while eating lunch.

@vineyridge you can call yourself an icconoclast, but what you actually are is vile. Yes, you are entitled to your beliefs, and to share those beliefs on a public forum. I am entitled to have and express the opinion that you are ill-informed, misguided and, well, disgusting.

Perhaps you’d like to familiarize yourself with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It is the lowest cost of entry for behaving like a decent human being and you’ll see that whole “slavery is bad” stuff in there: https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

As for holding up what is “normal” in terms of pubescent sexual activity in Mississippi as a good situation, I’d prefer to not take a page from a state that ranks, according to USNews.com, in 49th place overall and is dead last in health care. The bottom 5% scores in Education, Economy, Fiscal Stability, Infrastructure and Opportunity are also not to be emulated. Median income of $23,121, however, surely gives the state bragging rights in some way.

You know why pubescent kids are having sex in Mississippi? There is nothing else to do and absolutely no hope of a better life for a lot of those kids. There is little wonder that the state has the third highest teen pregnancy rate (ThoughtCo.com) at 58/1000 women age 15-18. No one keeps stats on under 15 kids. Too bad, you could take home a prize!

And why is that a problem? Youth.gov says:

Through recent research, it has been recognized that pregnancy and childbirth have a significant impact on educational outcomes of teen parents.

• By age 22, only around 50 percent of teen mothers have received a high school diploma and only 30 percent have earned a General Education Development (GED) certificate, whereas 90 percent of women who did not give birth during adolescence receive a high school diploma.
• Only about 10 percent of teen mothers complete a two- or four-year college program.
• Teen fathers have a 25 to 30 percent lower probability of graduating from high school than teenage boys who are not fathers.

Children who are born to teen mothers also experience a wide range of problems. For example, they are more likely to:

• have a higher risk for low birth weight and infant mortality;
• have lower levels of emotional support and cognitive stimulation;
• have fewer skills and be less prepared to learn when they enter kindergarten;
• have behavioral problems and chronic medical conditions;
• rely more heavily on publicly funded health care;
• have higher rates of foster care placement;
• be incarcerated at some time during adolescence;
• have lower school achievement and drop out of high school;
• give birth as a teen; and
• be unemployed or underemployed as a young adult.

So lets not hold up underaged sexual activity in Mississippi up as something we should accept, let alone embrace and emulate.

As for even suggesting that kids having sex with adults is "ok’? I just can’t even. And I usually can, on almost any subject. But I just can’t.