Thank you.
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I stand corrected!
THANK YOU! Moderator 1!!
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Thank you. I think she should have been banned a long time ago due to repeated personal attacks directed at one poster. However, better late than never!
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The BIG problem for the horse industry is that if PARENTS read this discussion the (probably correct) impression will be that not only is there a rather big (not universal) problem with sexual abuse of minors AND a humongous problem of professionals within our industry dismissing the importance of this problem.
Riding schools, equitation academies, study opportunities within the industry NEED to be safe places for children. I tell you, I have been horse crazy for over 50 years but after reading this discussion there is no way that I could ever trust a male (yes I know, some women do it too) horse professional alone with a child EVER. This is a true pity because I am one who benefitted from talking with horseMEN one on one with no problems, not all male horsemen wear demon’s horns.
I have an odd suggestion: that, at least for children and adolescent riders, we go back to the old-fashioned cavalry twill jodhpurs and breeches. Today riding clothes, while very comfortable and utile, are rather risque and revealing. I truly admire horsemen who can ignore the sexual possibilities of their young riders, especially when a riding teacher HAS TO closely inspect every detail of the rider’s position, and yes, at times, move part of the rider’s body into a better position. These men should be lauded.
In our industry it is now time to concern ourselves with the morals of riding teachers, coaches and trainers. We are going to have to get serious about a horse professionals REPUTATION especially as concerns sexual morals. Maybe someday a riding instructor with a bad reputation will be shunned instead of worshiped for his/her success in competition.
We also have to get after the young people to dress more modestly, and I think most people will agree that the old-fashioned jodhpurs and breeches are a lot less sexual than the current fashion of EXTREMELY revealing, very close fitting fabrics. Will the children like it? NO! So what, we are the adults, we see a problem, and this can be part of the solution to this horrible problem.
Gee, this makes me sound old-fashioned conservative fuddy-duddy, BUT if we do absolutely nothing about this problem it could well lead to the death of our industry as fewer and fewer parents decide to spend their money on riding lessons, coaching and training for their precious children (which will also affect other horse related industries.)
We are a luxury, not a necessity. Today a person can get along perfectly well with no horse knowledge at all.
Let me just speak to the issue of GM sitting alone because he is so nasty.
He is nasty, but only to people who don’t count. Do you think he is that mean to Jessica Springsteen or Jen Gates? Or their parents? When I’ve seen his clinics, he is always whisked off to lunch with someone with money who obviously thinks he’s great. Heaven forbid that he stops to exchange words with any of the little peasants who don’t count.
When I watch them ride, he never yells at them or throws dirt, etc. I think he has - or had - plenty of admirers who really either have no personal experience with GM being nasty or who don’t care.
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@Jackie Cochran Jackie
”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹clothes don’t make people rape people. As I’m sure others have figured out, this has been going on for decades just in the modern era, long before tech fabrics and “tight breeches”.
Please don’t perpetuate this misinformation that somehow wearing different pants makes you more or less likely to be assaulted.
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@Jackie Cochran
I have an odd suggestion: that, at least for children and adolescent riders, we go back to the old-fashioned cavalry twill jodhpurs and breeches. Today riding clothes, while very comfortable and utile, are rather risque and revealing.
No, no, no! While it’s wrong to sexualise children, once again, you are attempting to place women in the position of being the keepers of men’s sexuality. To follow that thought through, why not just make them wear burkhas?
Just because some man or woman) thinks it’s offered, doesn’t mean that they have to take it. It’s the adult’s responsibility to behave in the way they know is right.
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Thank you Moderator!
And to be clear, I didn’t mean to imply anyone here wasn’t being empathetic. Sorry if it came off that way!
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While he can definitely be kinder to lovely well mounted riders, he can also be an ass when he feels his opinion is being questioned. Because He doesn’t view it as opinion. He demands deference, not just money and pretty riding. When he doesn’t get it, he throws a temper tantrum.
At least I can say he’s not a sycophant :lol: he can and will bite the hand that feeds him.
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OK - I have had a busy week, and am now catching up on the last several pages of this thread over coffee.
:eek:
:eek:
:sigh:
A few thoughts. Sometimes it’s healthy for all of us to take a breather from intense, triggering topics. It’s hard… I totally struggle with this. But it’s necessary. So when it all gets to you… go for a walk. Better yet, Go groom a horse. A really good grooming. Lots of currying, and brushes, and ending with old school gentle rub down with super soft rags. Or go out for a long hack on your horse. Or just surrender hours of your day… and do both. This always gets me out of bad head space, and I have a mare or two who love these days with me.
If if you want to be more productive and efficient, just do something else really basic and satisfying that involves fresh air and sunlight. Mowing the lawn or paddocks, weeding and tidying up the simple garden beds right around my house almost always helps me. I find tidying up mentally soothing.
Second… I am not nearly as prolific or regular of a poster on these forums as some, and am admittedly guilty of being “verbose.” I’ve mentioned in other threads that I have some chronic health issues. Cancer survivor, etc. Some other folks who post routinely also have seem to have chronic health issues… or are older. Sometimes, when my thyroid medication is out of balance (I had my entire gland removed years ago and have to have daily replacement meds… and the dosages does sometimes need adjustment), I struggle with SEVERE insomnia and medical anxiety, and actually read through the forums then to distract myself from other stuff. I can get into a crazy deep analytical zone when I am a bit hyperthyroid… and make long posts in the wee hours of the morning that I realize later were “off.”
I cant give a good reason as to why anyone would stretch their analysis to such a degree that they would go on tangents to try and describe the institution of slavery anywhere at anytime as “not that bad” or come up with a rationale for why sexual activity between young teens and adults in modern day America is actually something we should just settle down about (I guess because some kids these days in some communities are overly promiscuous anyways in some communities… … :no:…
But perhaps something is going on health wise that others on the forums just aren’t aware of.
I recently got bloodwork work done and my thyroid was QUITE off. Hyperthyroid again. That was right after I made a bunch of posts on the RG thread that some fellow posters called me out on. A lot of the same folks who are participating on this thread. I tried to pause and take some criticism on board… and after a few weeks of an adjusted and reduced synthroid dose and better sleep habits… I totally can admit I was “off” and dealing with extreme insomnia and not thinking completely clearly when I went on a tangent on that thread.
Anyway… just some food for thought. I really enjoy reading these forums, and participating in some discussions, and there are CERTAINLY many absolutely brilliant people who regularly post. And some real “characters.” The good and the bad sometimes go hand in hand. I appreciate it when folks manage to call me out, but also cut me some slack for some of my “less than ideal” musings. I do my level best to be self aware though, and own it when I step in it.
If people won’t own it when they step in it, and the mods have made the executive decision that their overall contributions to community discussions are valuable enough to let other issues go…
We should just let some of these sort of posts wither away and “die on the vine.” Fade away into the dustbin of COTH history.
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Oh well - while I was posting, the mods jumped in. Good for them!
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Thank you so much, @Moderator 1. I completely understand (and, 99% of the time, completely support) allowing a variety of opinions to add to a discussion, but there is a line that was crossed several times by that specific user. Some people on this forum already know this, but I am black & my undergraduate honors thesis included a section on slavery in sub-Saharan Africa & the Transatlantic slave trade. On top of the generally horrendous nature of those opinions, there was so much factual inaccuracies in those posts that I couldn’t even bring myself to respond.
In regards to the recent exchange, I believe it is a very sad situation all around. I have read many posts by that user and I can attest that they have publicly stated, more than once, that COTH has (BY FAR) the most level-headed and empathetic reaction to the recent SafeSport-related events in equestrian. They have also shared invaluable information about SafeSport and abuse culture in the Olympic Movement. It is clear from their social media activity that they are working tirelessly to combat abuse culture through providing news and clarity on key issues.
They had posted screenshots of few extreme/outrageous comments from several sports and several social media outlets (such as FB, Twitter, etc.) over time. I know that it wasn’t their intention to paint all the users on this forum as an abuse or slavery apologist. It is also clear from their posts that they are going through some very severe trauma right now. I completely understand everyone’s reaction to the recent exchange, however, I hope we can all keep that in mind when discussing the situation in the future.
@Jackie Cochran - As ladyj79, clothes do not make sexual abusers abuse others. The “modest clothing” argument is both incredibly ineffective and a very popular argument in the victim-blaming handbook. Abuse is about power/control - not sex. There was a stunningly powerful exhibition that started at the University of Arkansas titled “What were you wearing?” that aims to dispel this dangerous myth… The galleries included clothing that represented what the survivor was wearing when they were assaulted along with a brief description of the assault: https://ohiotoday.org/fall-2018/what-were-you-wearing/
Edit: @Ghazzu you beat me to it! I’ve been to several of the exhibitions and it breaks my heart every time.
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It’s a nice idea that dressing differently could solve the “problem”, but it won’t. Abuse has been going on for decades, not just when riding apparel became more revealing. And that doesn’t solve the problem in other sports – gymnastics, rowing, etc. where the apparel is functional and revealing.
I’ve trained with plenty of horseMEN over the years. There appear to be plenty who do not seem to be sexually attracted to young people (of either gender) and successfully navigate the waters of coaching without oversexualizing it. I was at a barn in my teens where there was lots of hanky panky going on, but the riders in question limited themselves to other adults.
Absolutely we need to develop into a sport where a trainer’s reputation is as important as his record for winning. But looking at our industry’s past scandals – killing horses for insurance, drugging, etc.-- many people were willing to overlook these transgressions because they thought those professionals would help them win.
George Morris has always been a bully. People wore his abuse as a badge of honor. “I survived George”. There are plenty of other trainers in our industry who take the same approach. One of my trainers took a clinic with a very respected, Olympic medalist, dressage trainer and came back shaking her head. She said, “there’s a man who has made a career out of insulting middle aged women.”
Many people have somehow come to accept that words of wisdom are somehow more potent if they are delivered with abuse! Personally, I won’t pay a trainer to hurl insults at me when there are other ways of learning, but it’s endemic in riding (and probably other sports).
We all need to take a good, hard look at the professionals we support and draw a few lines in the sand. Good behavior should be expected – demanded – from both the professionals and their students.
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@Jackie Cochran
How do today’s tight riding clothes have ANYTHING to do with the “rumored” abuse George Morris engages in (underaged teenaged boys were victims), plus the victim who is on the record (Jonathan Soresi)?
Soresi was a 13 yr old boy in 1968 I believe…
What about the youngest victims of Rob Gage? They were apparently riding back in the 70’s with him when fashion was quite different.
What about Jimmy Williams? Do you think the young girls wandering around Flintridge back in the late 60’s/ early 70’s were in the same sort of riding fashions we see today?
They weren’t.
Frankly… many of the ISWG crowd have publicly posted on Facebook about how all this behavior with adult men and teenaged girls who were their riding students was “a common thing” “back in the 70’s.” I have no idea if that is true or not… I was born in 79… but I think it’s safe to say that there was MORE behavior of the type that Safe Sport now prohibits back then, than there is now. Given that riding fashions ars definitely more of the skin tight variety now (due to changes in lightweight stretchy athletic suitable fabrics as much as anything)… it’s pretty clear there is no meaningful correlation whatsoever between sexual abuse of teenagers, and the sort of riding clothes they wear.
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Does anyone know if he is still doing the upcoming clinics that were already scheduled? If so, are there repercussions for the places that host him?
Needs Advil Some others more in the know might have some answers to the true SS answer. What is the consequence of his teaching and coaching in / at non-USEF or FEI events, on private property. And what is the repercussions to the owners / associated of those properties
I do have to wonder, however, if the ISWG crowd has quietly slipped away after coming here and reading the tempered, thoughtful posts of the “hoi polloi” .
I wonder if they are realizing that their wrong thinking , backward defense of the unforgivable ( which has gone on too long) is going to circle round and tarnish their own reputations.
It is an Emperor has no clothes situation and we are finally speaking up.
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del
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No, I think they love their echo chamber and think everyone who disagrees with them are losers. And woe betide he who challenges.
People like Robert Dover and Katie Prudent I think will die not changing their wrongheaded opinions, which extend beyond this particular situation.
But like, they still want your money, loser.
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Re: Modern riding clothes - Any old person (me!) who suffered through KSS (knee strangulation syndrome, haha) from wearing no-stretch gabardine breeches, or even worse, cotton corduroy breeches, can easily see that today’s riding clothes, made from performancewear fabrics, are not there to make you look sexy. They let you be an athlete and move in athletic ways.
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