Exactly. Information is already shared between the parties. They spin a tale that it’s not because they, the general public, don’t know. It’s disturbing.
Need to know is clearly not in people’s vocabulary.
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the evidence I have is that information is already shared between the relevant parties.
I don’t need to think the worst, these are openly and publicly awful people.
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Here’s their press release. They obviously want people to believe that none of these things are happening.
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From the press release linked by Roseymare, DC complains about SS being “opaque”, “operating behind closed doors” and wanting “transparency” and “accountability”. I don’t see how these words fit with a simple request that the respondent learns of all the evidence against him, including name of reporter. I absolutely agree that the respondent needs to know all the evidence against him.
But the words I’ve quoted above suggest to me that they are asking for “transparency” for public oversight, and “accountability” to the public; and not keeping the details of the investigation confidential (“operating behind closed doors”).
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The press release and their statement is worth the read.
A muddled mess.
The most amusing part to me though is that the whole thing is described as the “brainchild” of DC.
Indeed.
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Asking as a generally marginal user of social media (ie I don’t know how to manipulate to advantage) but would a few judiciously placed and labelled hashtags in some of these posts cause them to come up if the hashtag is searched from outside of these forums? Only asking because that might help give the sunbeams a broader and more penetrating reach. And A LOT of sunshine is needed.
@Jenerationx I also wish it was an actionable offense. The phrase “clear and present danger” comes to mind after reading the most recent of DMs work. That’s the kind of stuff that gets reported on the news after the bomb blows up the building and investigators check the perpetrator’s home computers et voila its all there. Except he has put it all out there already for people to see. I wonder though if there isn’t some agency like child protective services or something like that where a report can be filed even if it isn’t actionable information but could certainly provide corroboration and help provide a preponderance of evidence in the eventuality there is an actionable offense.
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Virginia horse mom -
The “full exchange of information” that I was referring to was bullet point #3 in DC’s Dec 13 letter. In a post of yours (#162) on the “people bashing SS” thread, you have a similar interpretation to mine; that the demand for revelation of information is a lot more than a discovery process.
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I think virginiahirsemom was relieved to hear that horsegirl had interpreted it differently and that is why horsegirl thought vahirsemom was wanting full blown details from the victims.
You nailed it. It’s what has been bothering me all along but I didn’t quite want to believe it.
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The Diane Carney camp has been clamoring for more information to be released about the complaints since day 1. They continue to say there’s no transparency, yet they don’t want even the names of people under investigation released if they’re under temporary sanctions. I know, and most people know, that if someone is under investigation pending outcome, they’re not automatically guilty, but apparently these people can’t grasp that concept. They’ve also been informed numerous times that a respondent is aware of the allegations and is provided with the details of the claimants report. SO, what does this “transparency” mean? The process is completely transparent to the parties involved and effected by the report and investigation. It’s NOT nor SHOULD it be transparent to those that are not claimants or respondents. Why do we need more information than there was a violation of SS code involving a minor? Do I need to know whether they molested or raped a girl, or a boy, and when and where, and for how long, or how many? Nope, I sure don’t. All I need to know is that there was a corroborated report that they did something that shouldn’t be tolerated in the sport and are banned. That’s not good enough for AES, they want to know the particulars so they can make excuses, blame the victims, and defend their pedo friends.
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It’s the child molester’s party line." It’s exploration" on the part of the 11yr old (or whatever minor child) they are molesting. :mad:
It is a very sick view, yet they try their best to normalize it to people that (should) know better. With society in general that is usually a big mistake.
Hopefully the H/J community is waking up and will stop tolerating these people.
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Honestly… I think it’s all about them wanting to know who Safe Sport investigators tried to question… and whether people cooperated or not.
There are stories now that have come out regarding individuals close to both the GM and RG cases experiencing pressure NOT to speak with Safe Sport investigators…
I know people in general keep on focusing about privacy of details… and how weird some of the random folks are who all want to know what PRECISELY was involved in allegations…
But the more ugly issue is the attempt to silence witnesses. Honestly… when it comes to cases from decades ago, witness testimony IS a big deal. Let’s be honest, there are plenty of ancillary parties who are well aware of what happened back then with these cases… and probably others… and have stayed quiet about what they actually saw for years because that’s pretty much required if you want to have a successful career as a pro in this sport.
So this whole push for “transparent” full exchange of information about EVERYTHING involved in the Safe Sport investigation? It’s all about scaring folks who are potential witnesses into continuing with silence. Scaring current pros that if they cooperate with Safe Sport and say something like, “Yeah, I saw so and so hanging out with that 15 yr old years ago, and it was pretty obvious that something inappropriate was going on”… the fact that they provided witness testimony to Safe Sport WILL get back to the accused. And the accused will tell their loyal friends… many of whom are judges and powerful folks at the top of the sport…
And people who spoke honestly with Safe Sport in their legitimate capacity as witnesses regarding what their honest recollections are WILL experience retaliation.
Bottom line… the accused does indeed deserve to know who the accuser is, and what the accusations are. But the names of the 10 plus witnesses who possibly talked to Safe Sport investigators and gave varying levels of testimony that possibly run the gamut from stuff like, “I never saw overt acts, but it was clear something inappropriate was going on,” to “I didn’t see anything back then, but this other person was also a working student at that time… go ask them questions,” - THAT’S what these people want to know.
They want to change the process in a way that makes folks LESS inclined to offer witness testimony because there will be even GREATER concerns about all sorts of retaliation against anyone who gives that sort of testimony.
And frankly… the mere fact that this organization headed by a top tier licensed official in the sport is actually publicly pursuing this particular part of their “Safe Sport Reform” agenda? That in and of itself will intimidate and potentially discourage witnesses in investigations which might possibly be underway right now.
That’s my opinion. It’s admittedly a negative one with respect to DC in particular’s motives. Hopefully someone can explain that I am wrong on a technical point of my understanding. But right now… it’s pretty obvious and ugly to me.
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Oh I forgot to say that I was received on my FB timeline an ad from DC so they are definitely advertising. I think it was a sponsored post from her farm page. I have one common friend and probably no common liked pages so must have just used horses and location as a target.
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It is clear that there is much more push back about Safe Sport in the H/J community than in any other segment of horse sport.
Even if/when some Eventing or Dressage guru is busted , I can’t imagine those communities becoming so asininely against Safe Sport as a whole, as are some of the higher-ups in the H/J community. Perhaps it’s because the Hunter people are more insular, being national,and not an international group?
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It is clear that there is much more push back about Safe Sport in the H/J community than in any other segment of horse sport.
Even if/when some Eventing or Dressage guru is busted , I can’t imagine those communities becoming so asininely against Safe Sport as a whole, as are some of the higher-ups in the H/J community. Perhaps because the Hunter people are more insular being national.and not an international group.
I can’t think of a name that is as iconic and as much of a cash cow so to speak in eventing or dressage (not that there aren’t BNs and gurus). I can remember seeing issues of COTH when I was a kid and it seems like it was all of the news that was fit to print in H/J followed by “and in other news” blurbs on fox hunting, eventing, dressage (roughly in that order). Except for the special issues that were more or less dedicated to one of the “other” English riding disciplines. I don’t remember saddle seat in it. However, I was not a subscriber and this is just my impression from then. Not criticizing it but just saying that BITD “riding English” and H/J seemed traditionally kind of synonymous.
So, these are the words of Duncan McIntosh, member of the USHJA and USEF. Trainer of riders who pay, and apparently who’s parents pay him, as their child’s instructor.
If you are a parent, or just an adult who enjoys riding and having a coach or someone to train your horse, you should be reading Duncan McIntosh’s words before you consider touching him with a ten foot pole, let alone paying him to teach you or allowing him to coach a minor.
Read the words that Duncan McIntosh has written for public viewing. No one is picking on him. He is flying his sexual deviant flag for the world to see. His perverse excuse for child abuse is common among abusers, but is not at all acceptable to healthy minds.
I think that the fact Duncan Mc Intosh feels that it is acceptable to put his views about the sexualization of children out for the world to see is a frightening example of how acceptable he thinks his beliefs are.
Guess what, Mr. Duncan McIntosh, you and the circles you move in, may think your views are OK. I and many, many others don’t, and I hope, with the advent of Safe Sport, that people will look up your name, and read your words and have absolutely nothing to do with you.
You may have your little group of enablers, but that will not last. It’s over. We’re not going to take it anymore.:no:
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@skydy and @Virginia Horse Mom outstanding posts that many should read and read again.
Also remember, the post was taken down but not before many saw it by Kristen with many last names, that there was an attempt to intimidate her and members of her family by GHM and his camp during the investigation.
It is sad to see so many people refusing to see people for what they are and clinging to misinformation.
Also what gets left out of the conversation about RG, is the ban wasn’t just sexual misconduct involving a minor, it also said criminal disposition which means it was going through legal channels.
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@TheMoo - thanks, and yes indeed… I well remember Kristin’s post. There also was indeed talk about much more recent victims of RG that did fall within the statute of limitations, etc.
Duncan’s assertions that he KNEW RG was no longer a threat to anyone? That’s at odds with reality.
I was willing initially to chalk it all up to shock and grief over the loss of a friend. But these posts concerning opinion on this sort of activity with kids being acceptable sometimes, and how people shouldn’t be exiled, how treating folks who make “mistakes” like this is archaic?
It’s now quite clear it’s more than just grieving a friend. And honestly… the increased boldness and noise and public comments from DM are simultaneously happening with a push from Athletes for Equity. Vanessa B is part of the very same conversation. She’s a core part of the group. She comments in the same string speaking out AGAINST victims coming forward years after the fact.
It’s unreal. They are discouraging others who might have been … or are yet to be… interviewed by s Safe Sport investigator from speaking AT ALL about anything they have knowledge of.
And one last thing… when Safe Sport investigators start calling around and asking to speak with people because they are looking into allegations against RG or GM or anyone else… it’s very very very likely that they contacted someone who WAS victimized as a child, and has never spoken about it before.
So consider that. The message to those people coming from the likes of DM, VB and others such as Bonnie Navin who had a long post about how Olympic hopefuls need to “watch your back” and other people need to “shut up if you don’t have facts”…
Well… if someone is already struggling for years on end with something they feel ashamed of, have buried, and are struggling to come to terms with… this amounts to a TON of psychological and emotional pressure. Absolutely horrible.
The sporting community should be united on one simple issue… if you are a USEF member and Safe Sport investigators contact you about an ongoing investigation… speak honestly and be a good member of your community. If someone eventually gets banned as part of that investigation… if you have truthful testimony… it’s not your fault. And you shouldn’t be subjected to bullying and retaliation as a result.
People just stun me in terms of how heartless and selfish they can be.
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@Virginia Horse Mom you once again nail it. The energy spent doing mental gymnastics in order to excuse DM, DC and their ilk is unreal.
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