George Morris on the SS list

I think people are grappling with the idea around the concept of consent, as an additional argument to muster against some of the goofballs suggesting that these children are somehow responsible for soliciting sex with adults.

I think you’re right, it’s a digression. The law has already decided this for us. These relationships are not consensual regardless of the actions or preferences or expressed words of the minor. And x2 when the adult is in a position of authority over the minor. It is up to the adult to say no, this is not what you want and this is not what we’re going to do - just like they’d say it to a child who wanted to run into the street or ride the 2 year old stallion out back or hop on the adult’s GP jumper and take it for a spin over the big sticks.

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I hate people

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Love that graphic. Young boys and girls do sometimes gravitate toward different toys, style of dress, etc.

But it is completely wrong to foist “girl toys” on girls and shame a boy for choosing a pink shirt.

Also wrong to assume a 7 year old girl who doesn’t play with dolls is a proto lesbian.

In an academic seminar I attended, one (male) academic dumped on another (absent) (male) academic by saying “So-and-so doesn’t have the balls” to correctly handle some particularly thorny statistical issue. I had an overwhelming urge to speak up and ask “OK, so please tell me what part of statistics requires ‘balls’?” Alas, I didn’t.

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I get that too. Especially when running errands after the barn when my hair is tied back.

OK… have read the open letter to Diane Carney that COTH published, and have caught up on this thread.

The open letter was excellent. The writer did a great job, and COTH has done a great thing in terms of giving editorial space to an opposing viewpoint after publishing the interview with DC.

As for the discussion you all are having over when children become aware of their eventual sexual orientation… which has come up because of Duncan’s ill considered comment…

A few thoughts.

First off, it is a fact that adults who describe themselves as homosexual in orientation experience SIGNIFICANTLY increased rates of sexual abuse as minors vs. adults who describe themselves as heterosexual in orientation. I can’t remember the reported percentages… but it’s a well studied issue.

Second… do not interpret that comment to mean I am saying there are more homosexual victims or predators than heterosexual victims or predators. I’m not. The last statistics I saw in a college psychology class I took a few decades ago indicated that roughly 10% of the human population, across the globe and in different countries and societies, is homosexual. There are some slight variances in that figure for a number of reasons… but overall it was a pretty well established number the last time I studied this (a while ago). So what the earlier point I referred to means is that a higher percentage of that 10% of people experienced sexual abuse as children than the percentage of the 90% of heterosexual people did when they were children. In terms of a specific counts though (a different metric than percentages of sunsets of a population)… probably more heterosexual victims in a total count than homosexual victims.

Another thing… Homosexual people can and DO get abused by heterosexual predators when they are kids. Look no further than Jimmy Williams and his most well known victim, AK. Similarly, heterosexual people can and DO get abused by homosexual predators as children. Read about the Jerry Sandusky case, and his adopted son… Matt Sandusky… who came forward with his actual story after Jerry Sandusky was convicted. It’s a really tragic story, and Jerry Sandusky… to be accurate… never did identify as gay. HOWEVER… he abused teenaged boys. Many of whom grew up and said they were straight. Matt Sandusky was married and has a child. The experience these boys went through was bad enough and hard enough to cope with because that’s how abuse is. But the component of them being abused by a man, even though they identified as straight? It involved an extra element of shame that caused many to remain silent.

I also have a second cousin who was abused by a male family member as a little girl. She and I have spoken about it. She is now an adult, and in a longtime committed relationship with another woman. She says the sexual abuse she experienced by a male as a child was profoundly traumatic for her in part because that wasn’t her sexual orientation. She didn’t know that at the time… but she feels it was an additionally horrific component of the experience that personally added to her trauma.

Bottom line… children should have appropriate time and space as they approach puberty to sort through their own feelings and any issues they need to figure out about their own sexual preferences without adults intruding on it in a premature, abusive fashion. People who are homosexual OFTEN struggle with self-acceptance as they go through puberty and their teenaged years. Sexual abuse psychologically damages a child’s own sense of self, and most victims who experience it have low self esteem, and serious emotional harm as a result. A child who already is likely to struggle with self acceptance as they figure out their own orientation and how they want to step forward with their identity, and then also gets sexually exploited by an adult in the midst of this?

Its awful and so harmful. People like Duncan who insinuate that because a boy grows up to identify as a gay man, it’s ok that he has sexual intercourse at age 11 with an adult?!?! So ignorant and wrong.

So let’s not get hung up on when exactly individuals identify as homosexual. I’m sure that is a complex and individual sort of thing. Instead… let’s focus on the need to protect kids. And also, the need to speak up VERY CLEARLY about how vulnerable children who eventually grow up to decide they are most happy and well adjusted with a homosexual identity are… we need to speak up VERY CLEARLY that it is ABSOLUTELY WRONG AND EVIL AND HARMFUL for adults to sexually exploit and abuse these kids as minors as well.

No more with this “older gay man showing a young boy about the lifestyle” stuff. That is NAMBLA propaganda.

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I get a number 3 on the sides blended into the top which is about 1.5” long.

@Virginia Horse Mom Thank you! My word.

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This talk about playing with toys as kids, and girl toys or boy toys?

I don’t know about the rest of you… but pretty much all I cared about from age 5 to 12 was Breyer horses, and stuffed animals. Mostly equines though. Although I had a few dog studies I also loved.

:lol: I suspect many of the other folks posting here were probably similar :smiley:

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It was actually further criticism of DM’s claim that an 11 year old boy “knew” he was gay and therefore “wanted” to experiment.

Claiming that a newborn perceives they are gay is preposterous. I strongly disagree with DM’s justification of pedophilia on the grounds that, in my opinion, a prepubescent child of 11 can’t physically “know he is gay” if he hasn’t physiologically experienced sexual attraction to either gender. I think the scientific evidence is there establishing that the dice have already been thrown at birth, or even conception as to eventual sexual orientation. But I don’t agree that a prepubescent 11 year old boy “knows” that he is gay or straight.

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I understand what you are trying to say.

I think it’s best though to focus on what we all can agree on…

Duncan’s comments were totally wrongheaded.

That 11 year old boy was molested, and that is wrong. PERIOD. He was a prepubescent boy.

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Exactly. I only add, psychologists and pediatricians agree with the law. Sex involving adults and minors? It’s illegal, unhealthy, and harmful to the minors. PERIOD.

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Thank you again for clarifying.

I feel like delving too deep into how and when children know things just doesn’t help when faced with people like Duncan McIntosh and Diane Carney. It also doesn’t help with posters who do mental back bends to not believe the truth.

The way you came off had me texting my own father, who is 71, asking him if he ever thought I was gay based on my dress and interests.

Please understand what you type and how it can be perceived.

ETA: I perceive you as a fence rider in these discussions. You have said a lot through out the many threads that give the impression you support Diane Carney and her ilk. Then recently in this one you chastise them. I suggest you finally take a stand and state your opinion rather than making posts that depend on how much support you get.

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I don’t believe we need to go down the path that Duncan McIntosh has led us in this instance. JMHO

He is obviously into the discussion of children and their sexuality, which is not a subject of interest for most people, except for academics in that field, and parents regarding their own children (not their friend’s children) when the time arrives.

The subject is irrelevant where Safe Sport is concerned. Safe Sport is a subject with no grey area. It’s black and white. Adults cannot have sexual relationships with minors. Period.

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DM knows perfectly well sex between an adult and an 11 year old is against the law and against the SS code. But he is nevertheless arguing that the legal prohibition is a reflection of prudery and these acts should be tolerated, because he claims that an 11 year old (even a one hour old!) “knows” they are gay, and therefore the 11 year old is not a victim because he knew he was gay and wanted to experiment. I don’t buy the premise that a prepubescent 11 year old boy “knows” they are gay.

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The older I get, the less I care and the shorter my hair gets. Because I like short hair. And when I have long hair, it looks thin and stringy unless I spend time with the blow dryer and lots of product. And who has time for that? :lol:

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I was a horse crazy girl. My parents said, “Oh, she’ll lose interest in horses when she gets interested in boys.”

Well, I did get interested in boys, but never lost the interest in horses.
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DM knows perfectly well sex between an adult and an 11 year old is against the law and against the SS code. But he is nevertheless arguing that the legal prohibition is a reflection of prudery and these acts should be tolerated, because he claims that an 11 year old (even a one hour old!) “knows” they are gay, and therefore the 11 year old is not a victim because he knew he was gay and wanted to experiment. I don’t buy the premise that a prepubescent 11 year old boy “knows” they are gay.

What an odd part of the argument to grab on to.

How about something simpler; like sex with an 11 year old is wrong; regardless of awareness of sexual orientation?

How about it’s wrong, ethically, morally and legally?

Duncan McIntosh, earlier in that malodorous post, seems to equate menarchy, ie, “visit from a friend” with sexual maturity and ability to consent, but I trust we all know that is hogwash? And we don’t have to ask ourselves if she really knew she was menstruating to know that equating puberty with maturity and consent is deeply flawed?

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It doesn’t matter if the 11 year old knows if they are gay or straight or not. They are ELEVEN. No one of any age or gender should be having sex with them.

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What is a “fence rider”? Hunter/jumper? I ride dressage.

What on earth have I ever said that makes you think I support Diane Carney “and her ilk”? Really, what?

It seems not to be obvious to DM that sex with an 11 year old boy is morally wrong.

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