George Morris on the SS list

[skydy]

@Virginia Horse Mom

I completely agree. The whole thing is so bizarre. And how does the 10 year old girl feel about her dad discussing this very personal change she is going through with an adult male friend? She probably has no idea, and would feel completely embarrassed and like her privacy was utterly violated.

I also think she would be justifiably horrified that in response to that incredibly disgusting spew from Duncan McIntosh,some people are here online, splitting hairs over the semantics of the menstruation of a 10 year old girl…

[FitzE]

Honest question from a non-USEF, non-H/J person: if this Duncan McIntosh has SS credentials (certified as having passed SS training) and is a USEF member, and trains children, and he has written that unhinged NAMBLA-worthy drivel on a public forum, is that really not reportable?

That screams “person of interest” to me. That post is scary in content and concerning in style. Talking about the menstruation of an unrelated minor (let alone a related one), about an 11 year old and the adult who raped him, about his own brother’s first sexual experience? That is bananas. And the style suggests someone not processing thoughts and language well. What the hell was that?

[skydy]

@FitzE

Honest question from a non-USEF, non-H/J person: if this Duncan McIntosh has SS credentials (certified as having passed SS training) and is a USEF member, and trains children, and he has written that unhinged NAMBLA-worthy drivel on a public forum, is that really not reportable?

That screams “person of interest” to me. That post is scary in content and concerning in style. Talking about the menstruation of an unrelated minor (let alone a related one), about an 11 year old and the adult who raped him, about his own brother’s first sexual experience? That is bananas. And the style suggests someone not processing thoughts and language well. What the hell was that?

As you can see the H/J community has a long way to go in dealing with the culture of abuse that has been allowed for a very long time now and is deeply embedded.

Safe Sport will help, but nothing will change this freak show until people stop patronizing and excusing these disgusting people, and their apologists.

[FitzE]

But is it not correct to report it to SS? E.g., please see this public post by someone you have certified as passing your training. Is this statement consistent with compliance with SS training?

Is that not what SS is for - reporting behaviour like this that clearly crosses the line?

[Midge]

@FitzE

But is it not correct to report it to SS? E.g., please see this public post by someone you have certified as passing your training. Is this statement consistent with compliance with SS training?

Is that not what SS is for - reporting behaviour like this that clearly crosses the line?

That would be getting way too deep in the weeds, I think.

[specifiedcupcake]

@MHM

If you can tear yourselves away from the most recent digression. Here is the link to the video of the safe sport presentation last week in Denver:

https://vimeo.com/380029483

1:37 - “I know some people who have lost their businesses over [being put on the temporary suspension]” … yea okay.

[fargaloo]

@FitzE

But is it not correct to report it to SS? E.g., please see this public post by someone you have certified as passing your training. Is this statement consistent with compliance with SS training?

Is that not what SS is for - reporting behaviour like this that clearly crosses the line?

I didn’t read the post, but it doesn’t sound like McIntosh is admitting to acts that are violations, just to having revolting opinions. Sanctioning someone for expressing opinions that are gross is getting into “thought-police” territory. I have no problem with individuals sanctioning him (as in, “now that I know what he thinks, I’ll never give that pig a dime of my money”.)

[TheMoo]

I don’t think he will receive and nor do I think sanctioning someone for thoughts should happen. I do feel that he should be on the radar.

His posts amount to people are being prudes because they think sex with minors os a bad thing. He also stated once puberty hits, kids should be fair game.

[fargaloo]

@TheMoo

I don’t think he will receive and nor do I think sanctioning someone for thoughts should happen. I do feel that he should be on the radar.

His posts amount to people are being prudes because they think sex with minors os a bad thing. He also stated once puberty hits, kids should be fair game.

Nice. (vomit icon)

Social media is such a mind f**k. Never before in the history of humankind have we been privy to the private, heinous thoughts of our causal acquaintances, business associates, coworkers, etc. I’m sure I’ve had many pleasant interactions with people who think horrible thoughts and do horrible things; for most of my life, I had no way of knowing that nice Mr. X who changes my oil or delivers the mail or works at the IT desk thinks that sex with kids is no big deal, or that women lie about rape all the time, or that gay people deserve to die. I knew that attitudes like this existed; I just didn’t have to connect them to a real person. I honestly think this is something we aren’t really wired to deal with very well.

Sorry, kind of a tangent.

[anon6923113]

@fargaloo

I didn’t read the post, but it doesn’t sound like McIntosh is admitting to acts that are violations, just to having revolting opinions. Sanctioning someone for expressing opinions that are gross is getting into “thought-police” territory. I have no problem with individuals sanctioning him (as in, “now that I know what he thinks, I’ll never give that pig a dime of my money”.)

I was the person who did share (via copy and paste) some of Duncan’s commentary. I completely concur with your opinion.

Social media is QUITE a double edged sword. Safe Sport is covering some gaps in terms of holding sexual predators accountable and protecting kids, because our criminal justice system has a very high burden of proof (that’s not a bad thing… just a fact of our justice system) and has limits in many cases related to admissible evidence, and statutes of limitation.

With that said… after watching all the way through Michael Henry’s presentation… it’s very clear to me Safe Sport ALSO has constraining factors. Well thought out factors, in my opinion, to ensure they don’t overreach in terms of their jurisdiction, and that they have a fair process and appropriate focus on their mission, and protecting athletes.

So they aren’t a “thought police.” No more so than our legal system. Neither are the COTH forums some place where we should all behave like “thought police.” But in the case of folks like a few that I have quoted… people who choose to make public statements in writing concerning their thoughts on these topics?

We are all get to read it and exercise our own judgement, and our own right to freedom of association (actually freedom to not associate!). We also get to exercise our economic freedom and not support that person’s business coaching kids. It’s all fair game.

Just my opinion.

[Ghazzu]

As it is said, “freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.”

[anon6923113]

@Ghazzu

As it is said, “freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences.”

“Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.” Or maybe… “Say stupid things… “

[fargaloo]

@Virginia Horse Mom

“Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.” Or maybe… “Say stupid things… “

Absolutely. And I as much as I would not want to see an investigation opened on McIntosh solely on the basis of this vile post, I would have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER if this post WAS entered into evidence should an allegation of misconduct be brought forward against him. No one put a gun to his head to offer up these vile viewpoints.

[YankeeDuchess]

@Virginia Horse Mom

I completely agree. The whole thing is so bizarre. And how does the 10 year old girl feel about her dad discussing this very personal change she is going through with an adult male friend? She probably has no idea, and would feel completely embarrassed and like her privacy was utterly violated.

DM has a ten year old daughter.

[YankeeDuchess]

@FitzE

But is it not correct to report it to SS? E.g., please see this public post by someone you have certified as passing your training. Is this statement consistent with compliance with SS training?

Is that not what SS is for - reporting behaviour like this that clearly crosses the line?

He has done the online training and gotten certified, which means he understands what the SS rules are.

But he does not agree with them. I don’t think his posts “clearly” cross the line because he is so unclear, muddled, and impressionistic. 

 He doesn’t quite say that he thinks it is AOK for a 40 year old man to have sex with an 11 year old (when the 40 year old presumes he knows that the 11 year old is gay). He alludes to the situation then says “Victim? Abuser?” 

I’m not sure the muddled, unclear aspect of his comments is intentional, but I think the lack of clarity protects him. To some degree.

[TheMoo]

@Jenerationx

Only a man would refer to menstruation as anything “friendly.” It’s like those “have a happy period” ads. Are you serious? I’m bleeding for 5 days from my crotch and the bathroom now looks like there’s been an animal sacrifice. If you’re going to call it anything, “the curse” works better.

This post had me laughing! Very accurate description. Also interesting, Duncan McIntosh uses euphemisms for something that naturally occurs in all female species, avoids using words like sodomy, digital penetration and rape (that is what this is) yet also believes if you sit the grown ass adult down like a child he will magically see the error of his ways. Pretty sure deep down his friend knew what he was doing is wrong despite the white washing of his friends.

[TheMoo]

@YankeeDuchess I agree his posts are boarder line. However if you put them all together from when RG suicided until now, it paints a different picture.

I don’t think someone should be banned based on beliefs, no matter how disgusting. I do think it warrants letting TPTB know they have a member supporting these actions. One has freedom of speech until ones words lead to action from the speaker or a listener.

[poltroon]

@fargaloo

Nice. (vomit icon)

Social media is such a mind f**k. Never before in the history of humankind have we been privy to the private, heinous thoughts of our causal acquaintances, business associates, coworkers, etc. I’m sure I’ve had many pleasant interactions with people who think horrible thoughts and do horrible things; for most of my life, I had no way of knowing that nice Mr. X who changes my oil or delivers the mail or works at the IT desk thinks that sex with kids is no big deal, or that women lie about rape all the time, or that gay people deserve to die. I knew that attitudes like this existed; I just didn’t have to connect them to a real person. I honestly think this is something we aren’t really wired to deal with very well.

Sorry, kind of a tangent.

Honestly, you’ve just been lucky not to have those ideas expressed to you in person. Because some people do and always have. Often in circumstances where the listener cannot just leave and would face serious consequences for any kind of pushback.

(This is where I’ll drop the story of a female asian engineer friend of mine, who was the only woman in the room during a large department meeting when her boss, who was sitting next to her, proclaimed to the room that “Asian prostitutes were the best prostitutes” and continued to speak on that topic for several minutes.)

That’s exactly why we have this weird backlash of people saying, “no one minded before” about this or that vile behavior. No, it was just that no one told you before.

[TheMoo]

Maybe we should start our own group that raises money for counseling for survivors, a hotline for kids to call if they need to talk things out and don’t know where to go? To maybe make that first phone call. CoTH is really good at sniffing through the BS and supporting a myriad of causes. Run an ad campaign to dispel the misinformation put out.

Just my rambling thoughts.

[BeeHoney]

@TheMoo I agree with you that it is starting to seem like time for a pro-justice, pro-survivors of abuse in sports group.

One thing that left me feeling uneasy was when the leader of one of those fringe groups (I think it was Kathy Hobstetter of Safe Sport Overhaul) spoke up at the Michael Henry presentation. She emphasized her meeting with the Center for Safe Sport that was going to take place the next day. While she sounded emotional rather than composed and professional, it sent a chill down my spine. Why is someone with these extreme views, someone who represents the opposite of what most people really think, getting an audience with the Center for Safe Sport? Is Safe Sport going to listen to what people like Kathy Hobstetter and Diane Carney have to say?

Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinions and also entitled to ask questions and speak out, but I felt like there was a visible gap that there was not a more athlete-centric and child-centric organization speaking out supporting Safe Sport and pushing for ways it could do a better job protecting our sport community from predators.