George Morris on the SS list

[ladyj79]

I again encourage everyone who doesn’t want to comply with safe sport or anti-doping to found their own organization.

[Irish_Ei_s]

@Crashing Boar

THIS^ is precisely the issue. In the USA most of us grew up with the expectation that the rule of law is applied to all citizens equally, in all situations. That judge and jury of our peers are the final arbiters of whether or not a crime has been committed, and are empowered uniquely to administer punishment; not NGO’s including SS or USEF. We did not elect these NGO’s or any others to govern over us outside of US law. The U.S. Constitution is still a “thing,” and it guarantees us standardized due process.

Without getting into the individual personalities and unknowing speculations that comprise 99% of this thread, I can tell you one thing for sure: Regardless of where they come down on SS, NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, anywhere is in favor of molestation of children.

However, our country is in the grips of Peak Scapegoat looking everywhere for a lightning rod, in every context. There are well-documented recent incidences of university Title IX “Star Chamber” trials going horribly wrong, ruining people’s lives without due process when in fact the “crime” was never even committed. I can think of 3 highly publicized cases off the top of my head. The point is that extra-judicial private bodies are being granted permission to all but destroy people’s reputions and lives, outside the envelope of U.S. law.

A poster many pages above mentioned that most equestrian trainers are independent, self-employed operators who are not used to being held to detailed rules by HR departments or NGB’s. This is very true. The biggest problem many people have with SS is its “rules” are unworkable in the context of ordinary barn operations. They seem to enforce a mindset where everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, is assumed to be engaged in criminal behavior unless they can provide minute-by-minute documentation that they’re “behaving.” The vet, the farrier, the muck-men, you, your mother, the guy who’s fixing the water heater and the guy on the feed truck. Just TRY running a business this way! You think the person in the ring can witness and control all of that at the same time? What if a kid has to go to the bathroom and the farrier is working in the barn, do you have to interrupt a lesson to go “supervise” a 17 year old’s pee as the only way to be sure the shoer hasn’t raped her? The idea that one can’t take a junior for a 5 minute ride to the corner store to buy lunch without specific parental notification and additional witnesses (who may not even be available) is frankly a new benchmark for crackpottery! Many of us are solo operators or employ part-time minimal staff. Do we really NEED to live in a paranoid panopticon surveillance state because 1 in 100,000 might be criminals? While the rest of the world just goes on about its normal business?

Here’s a practical solution for USEF: SS is mandated to apply to “Olympic” sports. Western riding, breed shows, hunters, gaited riding, rodeo, foxhunting, and the SUB-FEI levels of jumping, 3-day, and dressage are only peripherally related to the Olympic movement. Truly “Olympic” level riding involves mere tens of people out of 337 million. Therefore, the USEF should only require the SS compliance for those truly training at the FEI levels; a vanishingly small group of people, those under the most extreme performance pressure at the very pinnacle of the sport.

Let all other allegations of any and all misconduct, in any social context, be adjudicated by the legitimate US judicial authorities under due process of US law.

No. Just. No.

Am currently waiting for acceptance to that closed FB group.
Membership was up to 3,800+ less than an hour ago.

[Jealoushe]

@findeight

Just wondering if a SS ban could open the door for a civil suit. Any ideas? Methinks some supporters doth protest overmuch.
.

I think with him being 81, there isn’t much to sue over. He couldnm’t claim much for loss of income or future earnings since technically he is past the age of retirement.

The other thing is, once there is a civil suit, its all fair game for interviewing witnesses etc. A LOT of details would come out that likely would not help GM.

[Anniemaymay]

@Kttbulle

I’ve been appalled at the support i have seen given to RG and now GM after the SS allegations and lifetime bans went into effect and have been carefully watching those who support them, despite the growing evidence to support such bans.

I get that its hard to believe that someone you idolized was not the person you thought they were, but it is very disturbing to see people so angry and ready to tar and feather the victims and accuse Safe Sport of being on witch hunts.
when i first read some of the comments on the RG page about …oh he didn’t even like kids, but he said my kid was different, and didn’t mind my child… I was instantly sick to my stomach. I worked for 11 years in day care. And the red flag went up after hearing just that one comment. I haven’t taken the Safe Sport Training, as I am not a USEF member, mainly because I’m not showing at that level. But I have had training in sexual abuse and reporting thru my years in daycare. Its really opened my eyes up to the lack of training for horse sport professionals and how much reform the sport needs, as its clearly a perfect scenario for abusers, sexual and emotional.

I’ve never been huge fan of GM, the constant weight comments, the clearly abusive behavior at clinics, and especially the horse that died in the schooling ring years ago, due to impaling itself on a metal off-set pole, never made me want to ride with him (true I couldn’t afford it, but I had no desire to try to make it reality by saving for it either) They are much better way to spend ones money ( I’ve done clinics with Bernie Traurig, Joe Fargis and others and never felt belittled or abused)

I’m sure his business will not suffer despite what Im’m sure are bound to be very disturbing accusations.

lastly, I can’t help but think about the quote from Idris Elba regarding the #MeToo movement…“It’s only difficult if you’re a man with something to hide.”
Seems like a lot of USEF members are worried about the Safe Sport process… and I always feel like they may something to hide or are worried about seeing another BNT fall from grace. Feels like a reckoning is coming for horse sports that is clearly long overdue.

Sadly, Bernie is among the vocal GM supporters.

I agree with you on the reckoning.

[findeight]

Wasn’t just talking about GM getting hit with a civil suit. We all know there’s others he’s promised to take down with him. Might explain some of the passionate defense of somebody who has always been pretty unapologetic about his actions.

[poltroon]

@Crashing Boar

THIS^ is precisely the issue. In the USA most of us grew up with the expectation that the rule of law is applied to all citizens equally, in all situations. That judge and jury of our peers are the final arbiters of whether or not a crime has been committed, and are empowered uniquely to administer punishment; not NGO’s including SS or USEF. We did not elect these NGO’s or any others to govern over us outside of US law. The U.S. Constitution is still a “thing,” and it guarantees us standardized due process.

Without getting into the individual personalities and unknowing speculations that comprise 99% of this thread, I can tell you one thing for sure: Regardless of where they come down on SS, NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE, anywhere is in favor of molestation of children.

However, our country is in the grips of Peak Scapegoat looking everywhere for a lightning rod, in every context. There are well-documented recent incidences of university Title IX “Star Chamber” trials going horribly wrong, ruining people’s lives without due process when in fact the “crime” was never even committed. I can think of 3 highly publicized cases off the top of my head. The point is that extra-judicial private bodies are being granted permission to all but destroy people’s reputions and lives, outside the envelope of U.S. law.

A poster many pages above mentioned that most equestrian trainers are independent, self-employed operators who are not used to being held to detailed rules by HR departments or NGB’s. This is very true. The biggest problem many people have with SS is its “rules” are unworkable in the context of ordinary barn operations. They seem to enforce a mindset where everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, is assumed to be engaged in criminal behavior unless they can provide minute-by-minute documentation that they’re “behaving.” The vet, the farrier, the muck-men, you, your mother, the guy who’s fixing the water heater and the guy on the feed truck. Just TRY running a business this way! You think the person in the ring can witness and control all of that at the same time? What if a kid has to go to the bathroom and the farrier is working in the barn, do you have to interrupt a lesson to go “supervise” a 17 year old’s pee as the only way to be sure the shoer hasn’t raped her? The idea that one can’t take a junior for a 5 minute ride to the corner store to buy lunch without specific parental notification and additional witnesses (who may not even be available) is frankly a new benchmark for crackpottery! Many of us are solo operators or employ part-time minimal staff. Do we really NEED to live in a paranoid panopticon surveillance state because 1 in 100,000 might be criminals? While the rest of the world just goes on about its normal business?

Here’s a practical solution for USEF: SS is mandated to apply to “Olympic” sports. Western riding, breed shows, hunters, gaited riding, rodeo, foxhunting, and the SUB-FEI levels of jumping, 3-day, and dressage are only peripherally related to the Olympic movement. Truly “Olympic” level riding involves mere tens of people out of 337 million. Therefore, the USEF should only require the SS compliance for those truly training at the FEI levels; a vanishingly small group of people, those under the most extreme performance pressure at the very pinnacle of the sport.

Let all other allegations of any and all misconduct, in any social context, be adjudicated by the legitimate US judicial authorities under due process of US law.

I have been a business owner, a manager, a 4-H volunteer, and a public school board trustee.

There is nothing about these rules, or the spirit of them, that is unworkable. In 4-H we deal with younger kids than most of you and with livestock that is less predictable than horses. We also have a more even mix of genders and a lot more public coming through our barns. Some of the livestock don’t even get halters! We make this work both at home and on the road.

If you have a specific logistical question, ask how to make it work. I’m sure someone can help you figure out either that you’re fine within the rule as is or a way to change your process. If not, I think we can all work together to figure out how to recraft the guidelines to satisfy the intent and the need.

If a high school athletic coach is accused of sexual misconduct, we don’t wait for a trial and a guilty verdict to act. What happens is that there is an initial assessment and then law enforcement is contacted and that person is immediately removed from contact with minors if it is felt to have any substance while it can be thoroughly investigated. The school district may choose to terminate that person based on the local investigation even if law enforcement declines to arrest or the DA declines to prosecute.

Would you want us to do anything less?

SafeSport provides a similar option.

For those of you who say nothing less than a criminal prosecution will do, if that child moves away and thus there is no witness for the DA’s case, should we say oh well, no conviction, and send him back to class?

---

Y’all live in the world, like it or not. There is no running from this. SafeSport is mandated by Congress, not USEF, and the basic guidelines of training and conduct apply to ANY athletic competition that involves minors and crosses state lines. Further, the insurance companies are all right on board - so the liability insurance for any athletic organization is already getting you set up with training and policy. I expect the liability insurance for your barn will be signing you up for it as well, even if you never cross a state line or compete in any shows.

You can do this. I have faith in you. You manage to keep horses in tents without them injuring each other. You manage to get the horses braided and the vet bill paid and your bills paid working with some of the most difficult clients in the business world. If you can figure out how to get horses in a ring with their socks still white and their hooves polished and their riders up wearing clean white clothing at a specific time of day, you have the skills.

[vxf111]

Man, I feel like inviting civil discovery is exactly NOT what someone accused of misconduct wants…

[Jealoushe]

Bernue Traurig just posted he stands with GM and has relinquished his USEF and USHJA membership on FB.

Ok, so then he posted he doesn’t show so not sure how it effects him.

I feel like he might have something to hide based on his similar response after RG.

If all your friends are doing it?

[poltroon]

@vxf111

Man, I feel like inviting civil discovery is exactly NOT what someone accused of misconduct wants…

Right?

And all those people who were mad that accusations were made against Jimmy Williams only after he was dead “and could no longer defend himself” seem oddly unpleased that George Morris is getting his allegations when he is still alive to answer them.

[sdlbredfan]

@Virginia Horse Mom

In other news, a rather interesting public post on Kristin Medall Simpson-Ferguson Hardin’s page in the last few hours.

Who the heck is that, and why should anyone care???

[beowulf]

@Jealoushe

Bernue Traurig just posted he stands with GM and has relinquished his USEF and USHJA membership on FB!!

Yes, let the nasty old men all sit in a corner together. Makes it easier to cast the net when it comes time for them to answer for their criminal behavior.

You are the company you keep… which… in some ways, is why I feel so many people are pushing back so riotously against GM’s ban. Hard pill to swallow when you break bread with a child molester, innit?

[jmp1993]

@Jealoushe

Bernue Traurig just posted he stands with GM and has relinquished his USEF and USHJA membership on FB.

Ok, so then he posted he doesn’t show so not sure how it effects him.

I feel like he might have something to hide based on his similar response after RG.

If all your friends are doing it?

This is so disappointing. I was supposed to clinic with him and now I don’t know if I can. Does no one have an ounce of respect and care for the victim(s)? It’s triggering for me, I can’t imagine how they must feel. I reported their group on FB as I feel the environment allows for apologists of assault and violence against children to prosper.

[NoSuchPerson]

@Tiramit

<<STATING THIS AS A GENERAL DISCUSSION POINT, NOT AS A SS HATER OR GM SUPPORTER>>

Here is my issue with comments like the above against the appeals process… If “we’re” asking everyone in the NGOs and general sport community to accept SS’s findings as thorough, fair, and ultimately our NGO’s law, then we must accept that their appeals process is equally thorough, fair, and ultimately NGO law.

We can’t pick and choose saying that the process is beyond reproach in its initial investigators process and ruling as long as the accused is held at bay, but will probably fall apart when challenged. That makes little sense. If the case is that strong, it should stick. If the witness statements were strong enough the first time around, shouldn’t they hold in the second? I get that people may have second thoughts and back out, but shouldn’t the initial evidence presented stand?

If we have faith in the system and its process, giving it the power to permanently remove people from our sport based solely on the system’s ruling, then we should maintain that faith throughout.

I do trust that the system’s process is beneficial in removing scum from our sport, including the likely very guilty GM. The stories have been out there and we’ve all seen his comments either in print or person.

However, I’ve also read about too many cases where later evidence exonerated the accused. If we trust the system then we should, you know, trust the system.

For clarification, I was not suggesting that any official actions not follow the SS rules. If, upon appeal, a SS sanction is overturned, then of course the individual in question should be removed from SS and USEF lists and be treated just like any other USEF member. That’s how the system is set up to work and I support it.

My comments were about my own feelings. Trust is something that has to be earned. Back during the Rob Gage discussion, I did quite a bit of reading about SS, both on the SS web site (which really needs an overhaul to be more transparent and user-friendly) and in the media in general. What I read gave me a very positive impression of SS and a high degree of confidence in their practices, policies, and outcomes, thus my stated level of trust in the organization.

However, I read a number of reports about arbitrations that made me question the integrity of that process and the qualifications of arbitrators. I think there are definitely areas for improvement in how arbitrations are conducted, in particular with respect to the standards of qualification for arbitrators, the nature of supporting materials required for arbitration, and the obligations of SS in the process.

[Jealoushe]

@poltroon

Right?

And all those people who were mad that accusations were made against Jimmy Williams only after he was dead “and could no longer defend himself” seem oddly unpleased that George Morris is getting his allegations when he is still alive to answer them.

Right? Can’t please these predators can we.

[Alterforme]

My initial gut response was, that maybe BT is afraid of being “listed”. No membership… He’s safe from the Pandora’s box & the fall of Camelot.

[Jealoushe]

@Alterforme

My initial gut response was, that maybe BT is afraid of being “listed”. No membership… He’s safe from the Pandora’s box & the fall of Camelot.

You’re right, he dropped his membership real quick after remembering GMs threat of “taking everyone down with him”.

[Popov]

@INoMrEd

@Jealoushe, I hope you are correct!

Following this like everyone else. Not surprised. What does surprise me are the women who support GM with gusto…saying, “he’s never been inappropriate for the years I/My daughter/my friend rode with him!” Well…duh, he doesn’t like girls!!!
I think we can all write the list of victims (protégés) or those who narrowly escaped from GM to trainers that “dated” their teenage clients.
I feel guilty for sitting by seeing this over the years and no one saying boo about it.
As far as victims and accusers stepping forward…look at how badly AK was treated (though supported as well thankfully) when she told her horrifying story.

[Pennywell_Bay]

What does that mean “he’s taking others down with him”? Did I miss that?

So- to clarify: if GM is banned because of sexual relations with a minor, he’s exposing others guilty of it? And he thinks this is a way to prove WHAT about himself and shouldn’t he be doing it anyway? If you see something say something?

[Jealoushe]

@Pennywell Bay

What does that mean “he’s taking others down with him”? Did I miss that?

So- to clarify: if GM is banned because of sexual relations with a minor, he’s exposing others guilty of it? And he thinks this is a way to prove WHAT about himself and shouldn’t he be doing it anyway? If you see something say something?

When RG was banned, he made a statement saying if they come after him he is taking everyone down with him…obviously I am paraphrashing I can’t recall the exact wording.

So basically admitting he knows who else was just as guilty as he is.

[anon6003733]

del