George Morris - Showjumping Dumbed Down-- Response to Katie Preudent

[Andrew]

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2017/07/showjumping-dumbed-down-george-morris-responds/

[ladyj79]

George

“Listen, I invented teaching amateurs to ride Grand Prix. I was one of the first ones to bring amateurs all over the world to ride but you have to give them that hard core, and that’s not done today. Today’s riders, when something goes wrong, they don’t know how to handle it, because they are not taught how to handle it. It’s a culture, it’s not riding, it’s a cultural problem.”

I agree that the fences are different, and require more finesse and less reliance on “guts”.

I don’t agree that all the riders today are weak and soft and can’t manage any issues. That’s not the sport I see.

I will say, though, that EVERYONE, top and bottom, is less likely (not no one) but much, much, less likely to deal with the very difficult horses everyone claims they grew up riding.

Why would they? There are many not nutto horses readily available these days.

Why should they? Their livelihood isn’t in fixing or developing problem horses, it’s in showing and selling, and finding sponsors through their showing and selling. Getting injured doesn’t help that. Forcing a horse into a career it doesn’t want to do doesn’t prove anything except that the rider is stubborn and none too smart.

And you will always, always see a great rider devote more time to a difficult great horse. That will always happen.

But why should anyone want to hunt down difficult rides when they don’t have to? There is no shortage of great horses out there who aren’t difficult or dangerous.

And I’m sorry, I think we’ve seen you don’t have to train with an a$$hole and be treated like garbage to get results.

I just realized yesterday that I met Michael Hughes at the Washington International before he won, the year he won the eq final there. And he was a nice sweet boy and a great rider. And now he’s 22 and has basically stepped into the place of Zanotelli with Ashford. I think an American child stepping in to ride for a top European outfit is way, way more impressive than 22 year old Coyle finding Canadian sponsors.

And, again, I don’t think the sport is now full of useless dilettantes who don’t know how to ride because they didn’t fight a bear to get where they are.

[MIKES_MCS]

Yep… he did invent that "Amateur Grand Prix Rider " didn’t he …and over the decades this is what it brought us. GM really fined tuned the Business model of this industry and I doubt very much he knew it would lead to this. Starting with popularizing the Crest release for riders who weren’t quite ready to jump correctly but needed to be in the show ring to popularize the sport to the masses. Worked wonderfully until there was nothing left but the Crest Release and the puddle jumper at the big shows and no small shows left to bring along the beginner. Pretty bad when you have to start a WTC kid at a AAA show at a cost of $5,000.00 per week . on a $50,000.00 School master that’s been drugged and lunged so the Kids parents can justify the expenses . Yes that Cultural Thing … well it’s the culture WE created, because there was just too much money to be made .

[nutmeg]

I loved George’s answer, especially the part where he said the great course designers bring the country to the arena. Spruce Meadows, Hickstead, La Baule, Old Salem before it got flattened were my favorite fields to watch. I was lucky enough to work for George after he divested himself of the equitation division and was back to demanding the auto release. He would rip the stirrups away from his kids for months on end and demand that they did the 1.40 course on his derby field (including banks and open water) bareback every couple of weeks. It was practically a job requirement to be able to stay up all night waking up your concussed rider in the hospital. And I can verify that the parents were a different breed, expecting boot camp rather than the spa package. That mental toughness that he instilled was invaluable when the fences went up another 10 centimeters for the second round of the Nations Cup and it began snowing. This was before Perfect Prep and the magnetic stirrups. Possibly dinosaurs roamed. But watching horses and riders rise to his impossible standards was absolutely inspiring, especially since he never asked them to do something he could not do himself. I also think he is very right to mention that the cookie-cutter circuits perhaps negate the necessity for such bald-faced courage. You can earn plenty of points now without ever seeing a double liverpool.

[hillary_again]

I liked George’s response a lot. It’s not about riding nutty horses, or who has a lot of $ and who does not.

What he said: “The comfortable, well-to-do people of the 50’s and 60’s, up to the 80’s, their parents wanted it tough. Their parents wanted the trainers to be tough. Now if you look twice at a kid, often the parent criticises the trainer and takes the kid to another trainer – they want soft. It’s a cultural thing, the parents want it soft – it’s not the child’s fault, it’s their upbringing.”

So this is why so much of the lower levels of the sport have evolved to be more about showing, and winning while showing, and not so much about riding. Maybe the upper levels too, if you believe Katie ;).

Thanks @nutmeg, you reinforced this concept really well with your explanation and personal observations!

[rockonxox]

Denny Emerson also threw in his thoughts (from his FB Tamarack Hill Farm):

George, Katie, McLain, et al are trying to figure out what has changed these kids, the “times” the “culture” the “money” the “parent’s attitude” and lots of other reasons and culprits—

I think most of this groping for a reason isn’t worth much, because it is so totally individual, kid by kid by kid.

Some kids are worthless toads, and would be worthless toads rich or poor.

Some kids are driven to strive, to learn and to excel, again, rich or poor, doesn’t matter.

A good kid has an easier time being a good kid under “good” circumstances, and a bad kid will be easily led by bad influences, but the bad ones will still be bad when “raised right” and the good kids will struggle through being raised poorly, if the circumstances are not extreme.

Extreme poverty, extreme drug presence, extreme gang influence, those can drag down anyone.

Extreme wealth can be OK, if the parents don’t coddle the kid too much, but extremes at either end, rich or poor, bend the equation.

Offer the kid the chance to work, to learn, to excel, to acquire an education, and some will make it happen and some will throw it away, but not because of “the times” but because of “the kid.”

[ladyj79]

Is Denny Emerson ever wrong?

No.

where are my ten heart emojis???

[LuvRedHeads]

[QUOTE=hillary again;n9818242]
I liked George’s response a lot. It’s not about riding nutty horses, or who has a lot of $ and who does not.

What he said: “The comfortable, well-to-do people of the 50’s and 60’s, up to the 80’s, their parents wanted it tough. Their parents wanted the trainers to be tough. Now if you look twice at a kid, often the parent criticises the trainer and takes the kid to another trainer – they want soft. It’s a cultural thing, the parents want it soft – it’s not the child’s fault, it’s their upbringing.”

QUOTE]

This is not a problem unique to riding. My husband coached high school football and wrestling in competitive programs for 20+ years. The last few years all he did was complain about the work ethic of the kids and how annoying and intrusive the parents had become. I heard the ‘back in my day’ speech more times than I can recount before he finally quit coaching and took up golf.

I don’t know what the answer is. I just know it is not limited to the horse world. It is a broader change in society that we are largely unaware of until we deal with the after-effects.

[hillary_again]

Wow @LuvRedHeads , that is interesting! Not sure if that makes it less of an issue (more widespread, not just horse sports) or a bigger one… Thanks for bringing that perspective into the discussion. I would never have guessed that this would crop up in football and wrestling, which demand such a high degree of conditioning.

Overall, what a loss this is. These young people don’t get the sense of achievement that comes from overcoming a difficult situation.

[ladyj79]

@hillary again

Wow @LuvRedHeads , that is interesting! Not sure if that makes it less of an issue (more widespread, not just horse sports) or a bigger one… Thanks for bringing that perspective into the discussion. I would never have guessed that this would crop up in football and wrestling, which demand such a high degree of conditioning.

Overall, what a loss this is. These young people don’t get the sense of achievement that comes from overcoming a difficult situation.

This is why football in particular will continue to face problems

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/10/football-kids-heads/504863/

[Christa_P]

Even outside of sports, look at so many kids at school and expectations of the students, parents and teachers. There are students expect good grades because they showed up or did a couple of assignments. Some students will excel in almost any circumstances and really try to understand, but many want the credit without doing the work.

Also, if the student fails the parent asks the teacher why they failed and then blame the teacher, not the student, when it’s because the student didn’t do their work.

[skyon]

You’ll find kids with work ethics and different goals. Just surviving and affording school could make this discussion laughable for many and that could be even if they have a horse in their backyard, depending on location…

That said, I think the gymnastics, swimming and other gold last summer showed a different breed, of kids and parents that somehow are around and have existed for at least the age of their kids. Not known for the hard of past (particularly in gymnastics) and i don’t think you would call them or their parents soft. Then you have the HS intramurals who look to such.

[silver_charm]

I mean, you even see it in academia - the Chronicle of Higher Education has their own version of these same exact posts. Student entitlement, helicopter parents, and student retention rankings means colleges have had to walk a fine line between ‘customer service’ and actually providing a worthwhile degree.

I appreciate that GM owns up to his own influence in so many parts of the sport that he doesn’t like. I definitely agree that culturally, the trend is towards being safe and successful. If you can afford it, you can go from one packer to the next, and work your way up with a rather limited toolbox. That’s fine for your regular AA, but not so much if you’re then expected to maintain a string of 3-5 horses, always with newcomers in the wings. There’s a lot to be said for keeping kids safe and in positive situations, but at some point they should be secure enough to take on some real projects. But there’s not really any outlet for that in the junior eq/jumper pipeline.

[HP_sblueskyenterprise]

Denny Emerson is the best, perfectly equated and said as usual!

[ladyj79]

@silver_charm

. That’s fine for your regular AA, but not so much if you’re then expected to maintain a string of 3-5 horses, always with newcomers in the wings. There’s a lot to be said for keeping kids safe and in positive situations, but at some point they should be secure enough to take on some real projects. But there’s not really any outlet for that in the junior eq/jumper pipeline.

Not a lot of people are maintaining a string of horses for competition.

Those who do will always exist. Some will be great, and some so-so. And some awful.

Not everyone needs to take on projects. Ever.

And what’s a project? You mean a salami horse who may one day be great but may never ever ever make it because they don’t really have the mentality for sport even if they might have the rudimentary talent? Who might kill someone? I can tell a story about one of our clients who we got from an Olympian, and why? Because the horse the Olympian chose killed someone.

Sometimes the marble cracks when it’s being carved. Not every piece is going to be David.

I’ve ridden some dangerous salami horses, and I’ve ridden quite a few “project” young jumpers.

Me. I’m nothing special. But the best projects aren’t the craziest projects, they’re the ones with the most correct pieces of the puzzle.

Some horses aren’t projects, they’re problems. I think this has always been true, even among the top horses.

Not every top horse is Baloubet. And not every top rider could have made that horse. Even Neco couldn’t make that horse.

He was worth it for Rodrigo, that doesn’t mean everyone else sucks.

Exactly what Denny says, there will always be people who become great.

The conditions are different today, for sure. Some make things easier, some make it harder.

But ugh!! All of this gloom and doom and back in the day and blah blah blah. Nonsense.

Because as a teacher, yep, some kids are great, and some are awful. And some smart kids don’t try. And some dumb kids work incredibly hard. And some parents are nightmares and some are completely absent. And it’s always been this way, and it always will be until we reach the stage of being grown in pods and raised by the state.

[silver_charm]

Maybe I didn’t make myself clear. I meant the super top level Team members, since people are moaning that the newcomers can’t make up their own horses, they just have to buy ones that are already going that level.

That was my point, that not everyone has to taken on a project, much less a dangerous one. Just buy what you want. But I’d think being able to see talent in a young horse and purchasing it then and bringing it along yourself would give a rider who plans to stay on top of the sport many more options than having to wait for the next lawsuit-driven fire sale or whatever. And that it would be good if the kids that were hungry to make it there could be offered a chance to get that experience.

[Foxtrot_s]

Emerson is right on - You can’t tar everyone with the same brush. Again, I found the KP article distasteful, and coming from an elitist standpoint. The ‘have’s’ cannot see things from the ‘have not’s’ standpoint.

[ladyj79]

Speaking of the top, at least in show jumping and dressage, very few of the riders own the horses they are riding. And very few of them develop the horses they have at the top. They often don’t have time. And as I said earlier, there is great risk, both physical and financial to developing young horses.

It makes very little business sense, especially for those riders who can only have those 3-5 horses.

And even those riders who have to develop their own say, early in their career, they often have to sell those horses before they peak because they have to fund the rider’s personal and business development. My rider’s best horse had to be sold to the Olympian so that he could continue to grow his business so that he can have a long career and hopefully make it to the Olympics. In his case, the horse was nine, he wasn’t going to be qualifying her for this past cycle, and couldn’t afford to continue to make a run without more horses and a higher profile, so he couldn’t turn down a particular amount of money not when a) anything can happen. b) the horse was at a prime age for someone with the funds and profile to continue to campaign, and 3) it is no joke that it is much harder at the FEI level to sell at a big price point even a just good FEI horse after age 12.

So you see these let’s call them mid-level top riders, like a Derek Petersen, say “I love this horse, but I am willing to sell it for x.”

And then those riders with sponsors, the sponsors aren’t actually going to spend money maintaining your would-be project horse, and for instance, one of the big name barn’s riders went to the Olympics and was making like 1600 a month.

One of Doda’s riders kept his horse at our barn because even though there were plenty of empty stalls at Doda’s he couldn’t just keep a horse there.

Most of these people love horses, but they’re partners, not pets, and it’s a business not a hobby. They especially can’t waste the time and money on a maybe. And the higher you get the less of those kinds of risks you are going to take because physically you don’t have to, and it’s also not great from a fiscal standpoint. Makes no sense. For exactly the same reason we discourage a lot of people from breeding, buying babies, buying unstarted horses, buying green horses.

Like my rider bought a baby, an ET from his mare that he sold to keep being a professional rider. Because he’s soft like me. But that’s not normal in the sport, and now he has actually been supporting this baby for two years when he is down to one horse and no groom. And he’s a really nice rider, GM and Frank Madden really like him, but his business sense is maybe lacking and that could be what kills his career ultimately.

We can and maybe we should start a thread about the various levels of dealers and trainers and riders and owners that comprise the top of the sport, since I am regularly making the same kinds of comments on threads, but they are all spread out all over the place.

[Mara]

@ladyj79

Speaking of the top, at least in show jumping and dressage, very few of the riders own the horses they are riding. And very few of them develop the horses they have at the top. They often don’t have time. And as I said earlier, there is great risk, both physical and financial to developing young horses.

It makes very little business sense, especially for those riders who can only have those 3-5 horses.

And even those riders who have to develop their own say, early in their career, they often have to sell those horses before they peak because they have to fund the rider’s personal and business development. My rider’s best horse had to be sold to the Olympian so that he could continue to grow his business so that he can have a long career and hopefully make it to the Olympics. In his case, the horse was nine, he wasn’t going to be qualifying her for this past cycle, and couldn’t afford to continue to make a run without more horses and a higher profile, so he couldn’t turn down a particular amount of money not when a) anything can happen. b) the horse was at a prime age for someone with the funds and profile to continue to campaign, and 3) it is no joke that it is much harder at the FEI level to sell at a big price point even a just good FEI horse after age 12.

So you see these let’s call them mid-level top riders, like a Derek Petersen, say “I love this horse, but I am willing to sell it for x.”

And then those riders with sponsors, the sponsors aren’t actually going to spend money maintaining your would-be project horse, and for instance, one of the big name barn’s riders went to the Olympics and was making like 1600 a month.

One of Doda’s riders kept his horse at our barn because even though there were plenty of empty stalls at Doda’s he couldn’t just keep a horse there.

Most of these people love horses, but they’re partners, not pets, and it’s a business not a hobby. They especially can’t waste the time and money on a maybe. And the higher you get the less of those kinds of risks you are going to take because physically you don’t have to, and it’s also not great from a fiscal standpoint. Makes no sense. For exactly the same reason we discourage a lot of people from breeding, buying babies, buying unstarted horses, buying green horses.

Like my rider bought a baby, an ET from his mare that he sold to keep being a professional rider. Because he’s soft like me. But that’s not normal in the sport, and now he has actually been supporting this baby for two years when he is down to one horse and no groom. And he’s a really nice rider, GM and Frank Madden really like him, but his business sense is maybe lacking and that could be what kills his career ultimately.

We can and maybe we should start a thread about the various levels of dealers and trainers and riders and owners that comprise the top of the sport, since I am regularly making the same kinds of comments on threads, but they are all spread out all over the place.

Veering off topic for a sec -

Lady J, you are up in the top 5 of COTH people I would love to meet, just to hear about all of your fascinating, humorous, and sometimes :eek: experiences! (Insert emoji of green-eyed monster here, lol)!

[ladyj79]

@Mara

Veering off topic for a sec -

Lady J, you are up in the top 5 of COTH people I would love to meet, just to hear about all of your fascinating, humorous, and sometimes :eek: experiences! (Insert emoji of green-eyed monster here, lol)!

All you have to do is make a lot of really questionable life choices :lol::lol::lol: And embrace poverty haha.

And like when normal people reflect and think you know, I’m going to do the opposite of what I’ve been doing that has produced so much insanity? You have to double down on those poor life choices and say Not me!! That’s why even though I’m applying to literally hundreds of teaching jobs, I also messaged one of the wacky Latin riders yesterday to tell him to find me a job. But not with him haha because his partner is the one Jan Tops referred to as “Probably not 100% Taliban” :lol::lol::lol:

You actually can’t make this stuff up.

I am glad at least to entertain.