[QUOTE=Blue Domino;3701314]
Tell ya what Slick, I just assum the slc stands for Slick Too. Sticking a horse in the hock with needles because he’s lame because his dressage was heretical, wrong, false dressage. Sticking the needle in is pure evil. Just plain evil.[/QUOTE]
HELLO PETA:eek::eek::rolleyes:
This is just sick! A horse I’ve ridden for 6 years, was mistreated by his previous “trainer”, still to this day I have issues. Not nearly as often, but to often for me. It’s sickening. I can go months with seeing no signs of the past, then some days I’ll walk into his stall with a baseball cap on, and he about melts to the ground. 
Poor guy! Yes, he can be a brat, but no reason to beat on him! He is a sweetheart, and takes everything to heart. I believe this is why we still run into issues six years later after taking over the ride on him, it took about 2 years for him to fully trust me. This thing just makes me sick. She should be hung in my opinion.
One place I worked, a horse had been put on the ground by a breaker. Two years later, he walked into the barn, and 50 feet away, the horse was trying to climb out the back wall of its stall. Horses are sentient beings.
Outing Abuse
[QUOTE=BumbleBee;3564014]
Equbrit I totally disagree
I say it’s a good thing to post as this was a HIGH PROFILE rider. So many idolize their trainers and it’s important people know they cannot just assume if someone has a name/record they are worth emulating.
Knowing this happens keeps peoples eyes open.[/QUOTE]
All horse and animal lovers must take action whenever and wherever abuse rears its ugly head.
Animals by and large are dependent on us. They have no voice. We must be their voice. Their very loud voice if necessary. Abuse comes in all shapes and sizes. Many years ago when I was quite the novice to the sport of dressage I was at a reputable barn and the “professional” breaking my filly swatted her between her ears with the button end of my braided dressage whip to the point of it unraveling. My fillies “sin”? She was three, and being asked to go into a short rein, unyielding hand, with vise-grip legs and driving seat so predictably she “threatened” to go up…go figure! This woman is still in the area, still riding youngsters, and still has a “golden” reputation. If I told you her name most would know it. And funnily enough, my assessment of her life is she’s got a miserable one.
And they don’t forget the abuse.
Some years ago, when we were first trying lateral work, I got completely confused (hey! I’m dyslexic!). My then trainer offered to get on so that she could explain to my horse what was being asked (and I could see the process). As she mounted, the popper of the dressage whip barely touched his neck, and you could see the reaction - tension, braced - he was just waiting for her to nail him. And so instead of doing lateral work, we spent the next 20 minutes just desensitizing him again.
I don’t know what happened, or when. But something did, and I doubt it was only once. I often wonder what my horse would have been like without all those defenses shored up.
Poor animal. This link was posted on another forum as well. I hope this poor horse ends up in the right hands.
No reason to get personal here but I too consider it poor horsemanship to inject a horse with anything in order to make it ‘serviceably sound’. If it can only work with medication it needs to stop working and be retired. Some humans may chose to pop this or that pill to ‘feel better’ or ‘be comfortable’ and most doctors I’ve known tend to believe that much soreness could have been effectively prevented with a bit more of effort towards a healthy lifestyle.
To each their own but since there is no rationally founded line to be drawn on a scale between ‘drugging for use’ or not it is more or less a yes or no decision and I clearly vote for no. If it needs treatment it doesn’t belong under saddle, let alone in a showring. It’s a big difference to make a choice for oneself or to do so for an individual - beast or human that you are responsible for. Self-interest shouldn’t have a place in that discussion. A horse does by virtue of nature have no interest in being ridden. They may obviously get accustomed to a certain way of life and some may have difficulties if switched from full work to pasture retirement but trust me, they all get it and there are a ton of things you can do with or for your horse after he/she has carried you around for years 
Joint Injections and Cartilage Health: More Fuel for the Fire
The potential impact of intra-articular medications on the health of cartilage in joints has been debated for decades. Adding fuel to the fire is the recent finding that two common joint medications not only support cartilage cells, they also might help to protect cartilage from being damaged by some other substances sometimes used within the joint.
https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12624&nID=1&src=RA
[QUOTE=ridgeback;3711898]
The potential impact of intra-articular medications on the health of cartilage in joints has been debated for decades. Adding fuel to the fire is the recent finding that two common joint medications not only support cartilage cells, they also might help to protect cartilage from being damaged by some other substances sometimes used within the joint.
https://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=12624&nID=1&src=RA[/QUOTE]
That is an interesting article, no doubt. I can’t say I am for or against joint injections as we have never needed to make that decision. But I do know of at least one injection that was done as a preventitive. The horse was not at all lame, nor had any issues. The joint ended up septic and it took over a year and many $$$$s before the horse was sound again.
As to the abuse issue, CW should be tarred and feathered!
Well the debate is not only about joint injections. I think we basically discussing whether any medication aiming at keeping the unsound horse serviceably sound. I don’t really care whether it is oral bute or cyclical joint injections. Anything that needs to be kept ‘on a level’ to warrant an unsound horse doesn’t display his problems should in my opinion be avoided for ethical reasons. When medication is administered it should be an attempt to rehabilitate the horse and if it does not return to soundness it should be retired and medication continued to alleviate potential suffering from chronic disease whatsoever. Very simple. When comfortable retirement can not be achieved by means of medical maintenance euthanasia should be considered. Owner and veterinarian need to cooperate on decision-making process as life-quality may vary tremendously and evaluation requires a lot of factors and some expertise. I don’t think the desire to ride a horse as long as possible is ethically justified. The way I see it is we are taking a lot from our horses. Most horses will find themselves worn out by human use one way or the other. The vast majority of stallions can never fulfill what their instinct-set goal is, to reproduce themselves. Mares are routinely robbed of their normal estrus behavior let alone the essentially natural act of having a foal. Let’s not even go to horses who’s only social interaction is being cuddled by some human who may show up for an hour or two while for the rest of a days time it is subjected to either deadboring single dirt turnout the size of a few canterstrides or confined in a widely stimulus-free boxstall all by itself with the only amusement being degenerated pet-toy stuff designed in plastic and meant to keep the owner happy much more than providing extra occupation for the underexercised horse… Nono, a few years of good old retirement are the least we can do for our fourlegged partners unless of course all the talk of horsemanship and being a passionate horseowner is bs to begin with and the horse is valued no more than a tennis racket that is kept only as long as it functions.
[QUOTE=Kareen;3712317]
Well the debate is not only about joint injections. I think we basically discussing whether any medication aiming at keeping the unsound horse serviceably sound. I don’t really care whether it is oral bute or cyclical joint injections. Anything that needs to be kept ‘on a level’ to warrant an unsound horse doesn’t display his problems should in my opinion be avoided for ethical reasons. When medication is administered it should be an attempt to rehabilitate the horse and if it does not return to soundness it should be retired and medication continued to alleviate potential suffering from chronic disease whatsoever. Very simple. When comfortable retirement can not be achieved by means of medical maintenance euthanasia should be considered. Owner and veterinarian need to cooperate on decision-making process as life-quality may vary tremendously and evaluation requires a lot of factors and some expertise. I don’t think the desire to ride a horse as long as possible is ethically justified. The way I see it is we are taking a lot from our horses. Most horses will find themselves worn out by human use one way or the other. The vast majority of stallions can never fulfill what their instinct-set goal is, to reproduce themselves. Mares are routinely robbed of their normal estrus behavior let alone the essentially natural act of having a foal. Let’s not even go to horses who’s only social interaction is being cuddled by some human who may show up for an hour or two while for the rest of a days time it is subjected to either deadboring single dirt turnout the size of a few canterstrides or confined in a widely stimulus-free boxstall all by itself with the only amusement being degenerated pet-toy stuff designed in plastic and meant to keep the owner happy much more than providing extra occupation for the underexercised horse… Nono, a few years of good old retirement are the least we can do for our fourlegged partners unless of course all the talk of horsemanship and being a passionate horseowner is bs to begin with and the horse is valued no more than a tennis racket that is kept only as long as it functions.[/QUOTE]
You are entitled to your opinion but I disagree. I think helping your horse out is the ethical thing to do. I am not talking about keeping a cripple going but often times the best horses might not be structurally the best and after some years of work if they need a little something that will make them feel better or heal them then I say it is our responsibility. Not sure how we got from injections to mares and stallions. If we were to retire everything that might need a little assistance, where exactly are all these horses going to go?
[QUOTE=ridgeback;3712569]
You are entitled to your opinion but I disagree. I think helping your horse out is the ethical thing to do. I am not talking about keeping a cripple going but often times the best horses might not be structurally the best and after some years of work if they need a little something that will make them feel better or heal them then I say it is our responsibility. Not sure how we got from injections to mares and stallions. If we were to retire everything that might need a little assistance, where exactly are all these horses going to go?[/QUOTE]
These kind of horses should go where they belong to !!! If they have ongoing problems they should be retired (and retired can be anything from being a pasture buddy, broodmare – if no inhertable issues are there - or even in bad cases to be put down so that the animal does not need to suffer !
There is no way in my eyes to “assist” a horse to feel more comfortable and to be able show or ride it as much as I want ! Either a horse is sound or it is not. All stages in between require a specific treatment and work or better no work.
But most certainly treatment and showing them or working them as if you want to show is unhumanely and not ethical !!!
It is a subject of alot of debate. No two people view each case of ‘maintenance’ the same.
MANY people give horses they are showing anti inflammatories, joint injections and chiropractic so that they can continue to show the horse. And you can’t tell these folks that they are doing something wrong. They will tell you the horse ‘needs’ these things to be ‘comfortable’, when the reality is that they want to show the horse, and so the horse isn’t visibly off on show day, they are going to do whatever they have to do to make that happen.
People vary in how they view this. If the horse is an aged ‘packer’ for a little child to go around and step over crossrails at a local show, people tend to be more tolerant of ‘helping’ and ‘making the horse comfortable’ (only if it’s not beating their kid!). If the horse is for an adult, is moving up, is in a more aggressive program, ,then people tend to not like it.
The harder the horse is working, the more prestige or benefit he is garnering for the owner, the more aggressive a program he’s in, the YOUNGER he is, the more the tolerance goes DOWN.
Taking the emotion out of it, there probably isn’t a lot of difference between the two. There’s a point at which the pony at the local show is being ‘maintained a little bit too much’ too.
Many, many people give various injections, chiropractic, and other medical treatments, including ‘borderline’ things that aren’t exactly viewed as ‘treatment’, such as magical supplements, to many horses that don’t need them, as ‘preventatives’ and feel very, very good that they are ‘helping’ the horse. There is no medical evidence than any of these things help horses, but if you say that, you will be jumped on by a self righteous person who is very happily convinced he is ‘helping’ his horse, and a lot of salesman got him to that point through ALOT of hard work and advertising.
To clarify, adequan is NOT a ‘joint injection’. It is given in a muscle, and it generally improves joint fluid that has been affected by inflammation. In some animals, it does absolutely nothing at all. it simply doesn’t work in some animals.
There is no evidence it is a preventative or improves a healthy horse’s overall athletic career. In the presence of normal joint fluid it probably does nothing at all. It does not make ‘super joint fluid’ and horses in training should not have ‘a low level of joint inflammation’ simply due to ‘wear and tear’ or ‘exercise’ that needs to be ‘fixed’ by adequan. I think adequan is great and even human friends use it on ageing knees that have had multiple injuries and are in generally bad condition. But a little study of what it does and how it works would make anyone doubt it could possibly be a ‘preventative’ or ‘enhancer’ or ‘a little bit of help’ for a healthy horse.
i am curious to know why/how this was allowed to happen a second time-if she has already been charged once with abuse? so did she get a slap on the wrist so maybe next time she will kill the horse, or are they going to do someting about it this time???
Law enforcement may be doing all it is allowed to do. They can’t just arbitrarily pick sentences for people, and past crimes aren’t always known or taken into account.
Replace “horse” with “person” and think about that. If a person is happy taking an advil in the morning and pain free, should they retire?
Arthritis gets WORSE with inactivity, so I think it’s in a horse’s best interest to keep it in work as long as you can keep it comfortable.
People are expected to work to support themselves (and their horses, LOL!). Pain meds and injections are often part of the program to keep people in work, why not horses?
My horse doesn’t have to work for anything in his daily life. He waits for someone to bring him his favorite hay (can’t make him survive on that stuff he only tolerates, right?), his treats, his carrots. I scratch his itchy spots, cure his ailments, and if it’s too cold I put a blanket on him. He expects all of this from me like the diva he is. Asking him to do an hour of ringwork 5-6 times a week in exchange doesn’t seem to be so much
Having just retired a TB that began to have off and on hock stiffness issues maybe 5 years ago, in his early teens, I have to say that it was very worthwhile to treat him with Legend and with several joint injections which did make him feel better and able to be active 5 days a week and even enjoy himself with his added fitness. My decision to retire him was because he had given me 10 good years, he was nearly 20, and I personally wanted to progress to work that he was not able to do.
As Ambrey said, activity and exercise are known to be the best thing for we mammals as we age. “Put out to pasture” is a metaphor in English that’s used to say someone is old and weak and has retired from life. I don’t think it’s unquestionably justified to do that to a “middle-aged” animal that can be appropriately exercised and worked out of stiffness and made, yes, “more comfortable” with reasonable treatment to counteract the conditions that create joint inflammation. To unilaterally not treat this, to not encourage exercise (more than lazing around a pasture) seems to me an equally questionable ethical decision.
Every case will be different. Lameness and stiffness are not precisely the same thing. If a horse consistently becomes more lame with work, then it needs to be retired from that work. But if it becomes less lame with exercise then maybe exercise is good for the problem. Horses need to move, we all know that, and pastured horses do not move the way they do “in nature” ie as wild horses that are constantly under pressure to look for food. A horse standing around in good grazing is quite at risk for many health problems, whether or not they are walking slowly around grazing 24/7.
I would no more stop hiking with my dog and leave her home (or put her to sleep!) because she became a bit stiff in the morning than I would abandon my horse to hang around a pasture getting old and stiff before his time. I will lower the work load and medicate in order to allow my animals to enjoy themselves and remain as healthy as possible.
I don’t think anybody is suggesting to deprive an unsound horse of sensible therapy or to retire them as soon as they show up with some orthopedic problem. I think what Alexandra and I are trying to say is we find it unethical to keep a horse in regular work while it is being permanently medicated for some worsening problem.
As far as the anthropocentic approach goes: The main difference is that most humans do not work as much physically nowadays. If you are a professor in highschool you may very well have arthritis yet still be capable of working in your profession unless you are too painful. Horse’s work is physical by definition they don’t tend to work as call center agents, management personel or scientists who’s climax of physical stress might be to turn pages in a book.
And for those who do work physically I would very much hope they have a retirement plan that allows them to retire in the event of significant chronic disease.
The other big difference is that humans make their own decisions. Someone who pops advil because they find it puts them into a position to enjoy activity that would otherwise not be possible it’s their own choice and they comprehend what’s going on.
It’s a difference though to medicate a horse so he can enjoy himself or to do so in order to be able to ride it for longer.
Let’s face it most horses do not enjoy being ridden to the degree to feel unhappy when riding ceases. And I really think in times of total overpopulation with horses there is no need to keep working the ones that are painful when not medicated. Much like it makes no sense to force someone with severe arthritis to keep working when at the same time a gazillion of young, healthy people are unemployed.
To be clear it is one thing to do the best you can to keep your horse sound and to treat him when he has a problem. Keeping him under treatment (which I would consider any measure that is repeated in cycles and aims at alleviating pain that would otherwise be more pronounced) in order to keep using him especially when many of the problems specifically many chronic lamenes problems relate to bad riding or improper management. There are healthier ways to exercise the horse than to have it dragg around an unbalanced overweight human who is incapable of making the horse use his back to carry.
[QUOTE=Jesse’sMom;3716249]
i am curious to know why/how this was allowed to happen a second time-if she has already been charged once with abuse? so did she get a slap on the wrist so maybe next time she will kill the horse, or are they going to do someting about it this time???[/QUOTE]
There was a first case where she got a slap on the fingers so to say. no real punishment, they forbid her to earn money with riding horses I think. I thik the second time happened even before the first case was in court and it was in another district so different courts. The second case was just in court around end of November (see my other post in here) when this above mentioned event in Denmark happened. This time a completely different country with completely different law not just different county. I have no clue whether she can be sent to court in Germany for what she did in Denmark or whether her probation is lost now. I am not a person working in that area.
But in any case: we need to keep our eyes open. As soon as she appears in clinics anywheren in the world the people organising them need to be told about these trials and that she is not allowed to handle horses in Germany for a certain time. As soon as people see her ride again, videotape it in the same way as they did in Denmark. A complete vidoe over the whole time she rides and send this to German authorities, make sure people witnessing it will tell the truth. it is up to us that or if that kind of people can do what they are doing. If nobody wants to take lessons from them noone buys their horses and everyone points with a finger when she is around horses. Than people like her will not be able to go as far. We have in German a word that I am not sure is existing in its direct translation in english Civil Courage. So everyone needs a bit of that to make our society better in any kind of way.
Kareen put it into better word.
I am far from not treating a horse that is ill, but I believe in the fact that a horse that has a permanent issue is not supposed to work.
A horse with arthritis can be put into a field 24/7 and than it has enough work to have its bones still in use. If the arthritis is so bad that it will even have visible pain when 24/7 out in a field something is wrong here !
I do not need to give pain killers and pretend riding is good for it and see it does not even show any lameness.
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