that video was awful
and it’s a shame about that horse. I know at least three that would have killed her if she’d even done half that much. I hope she meets one of them. Soon.
This is a bit naive. Do you not realize that nearly every horse at the top levels of every sport is on some sort of maintenence, like regular joint injections, adequan, legend, bute, ect?
You have to realize that while some are, many issues are NOT made worse by working the horse. And so this regular maintenence is simply keeping them happy and sound for a much longer time. Why retire an arthritic horse at age 10 when he could be made comfortable and kept in work until age 18?
[QUOTE=lstevenson;3718405]
This is a bit naive. Do you not realize that nearly every horse at the top levels of every sport is on some sort of maintenence, like regular joint injections, adequan, legend, bute, ect?
You have to realize that while some are, many issues are NOT made worse by working the horse. And so this regular maintenence is simply keeping them happy and sound for a much longer time. Why retire an arthritic horse at age 10 when he could be made comfortable and kept in work until age 18?[/QUOTE]
Because it is the same as if you put paint on top of the rutting foundation on a car and pretend that the car looks so nice it can not be close to break down…
Boy am I glad that even in our country that suddenly seems to be leading in doping at each and every show they are taking 2 samples at least by random for doping tests ! Followed by a a punishment that seems to me harder that what the ones in the big international show circus get.
[QUOTE=lstevenson;3718405]
This is a bit naive. Do you not realize that nearly every horse at the top levels of every sport is on some sort of maintenence, like regular joint injections, adequan, legend, bute, ect?
You have to realize that while some are, many issues are NOT made worse by working the horse. And so this regular maintenence is simply keeping them happy and sound for a much longer time. Why retire an arthritic horse at age 10 when he could be made comfortable and kept in work until age 18?[/QUOTE]
Because medicating him does not ‘keep him sound’ but merely mask the symptoms and ideally slows down the process. And keeping him in use when he is unsound is just simply not the right thing to do.
And only because something goes on in the top sport it’s not necessarily ethical LOL
I am a vet and have worked in enough clinics to know what’s going on and where. Not approving of something isn’t being naive. I would rather call it critical 
Why is slowing down the process a bad thing?
I am also re-thinking some of my medication opinions in light of my own experiences of dealing with arthritis, both in my horse and myself. If I stop taking drugs I limit my own movements. Then it gets worse. And I stop moving even more. It becomes a negative cycle. If I take drugs and MAKE myself move, I am initially very uncomfortable, but it gets better. I gain mobility and I can actually cut back on the drugs.
I also have a aged TB that was retired last March. He was being ridden lightly but regularly and being medicated occasionally. Since March he has gotten significantly stiffer. He was better off moving and getting the occasional medication.
These situation are never black and white, each horse’s management has to be considered on a case by case basis. And, like I said, more and more I think horses are better off with more movement.
You call it “masking the symptoms” and most others call it “keeping the horse comfortable”.
And have you not heard the phrase “use it or lose it”? Judicious work is GOOD for horses, even ones who have some issues.
[quote=Mozart;3719496]Why is slowing down the process a bad thing?
I am also re-thinking some of my medication opinions in light of my own experiences of dealing with arthritis, both in my horse and myself. If I stop taking drugs I limit my own movements. Then it gets worse. And I stop moving even more. It becomes a negative cycle. If I take drugs and MAKE myself move, I am initially very uncomfortable, but it gets better. I gain mobility and I can actually cut back on the drugs.
I also have a aged TB that was retired last March. He was being ridden lightly but regularly and being medicated occasionally. Since March he has gotten significantly stiffer. He was better off moving and getting the occasional medication.
[/quote]
Exactly. Keeping a horse fit and well muscled HELPS the horse be comfortable no matter what issue he is dealing with. When they lose muscle and strength, their painful joints have to support their body weight more. Good doctors and vets prescribe excercise to keep bodies fit and strong!
See, you can turn things around any way you like but riding an unsound horse is just a nono from the ethical point of view. There is nothing bad with releaving pain, the bad part is where you insist on keeping the horse in use (use does not equal exercise) whilst it is chronically ill. What is so difficult to understand about the opinion that yes you should treat your horse if it suffers and no you should not ride your horse unless it is sound?
There are a ton of healthy horses out there to be ridden. There is absolutely no need to keep using ones that are unsound. And no riding is not the healthiest form of exercise available to the horse you can trust me on that one LOL. The observation that horses who are under saddle generally have more lameness issues than horses the same age that are out 24/7 in a field and not ridden (say for breeding purposes) is as simple as it is conclusive.
It is hard for me to understand how someone who calls themselves a horseperson can be so self-centered as to refuse or even attempt to understand about horse physiology and needs before they make assumptions that don’t hold any truth (e.g. riding being generally good for arthritic horses). Sorry but get yourself a pathology book or even better attend some necropsies of horses that have been on longterm ‘maintenance programs’ and kept up riding. You better not pop it some bute and go on riding it 
I have worked with the finest vets in this country (and I’ve also been an equine vet tech for the biggest equine hospital in this country), and I can tell you that they say that it is TRUE that riding is good for arthritic horses.
Again, keeping their musclature strong supports arthritic joints, and keeps them more sound and comfortable. And NO, the excercise a horse gets during turnout does NOT keep their musclature strong. It’s great for horses to live outside and move around all of the time, but it does not build muscle. Ask any good doctor or vet, strong MUSCLES to support the joints are what keeps arthritic joints comfortable.
Wait until you get old enough to have some arthritic joints yourself. And see if you want to “put yourself out to pasture” or take some advil so you can keep working out and keep yourself strong and healthy. :yes:
[QUOTE=lstevenson;3722415]
I have worked with the finest vets in this country (and I’ve also been an equine vet tech for the biggest equine hospital in this country), and I can tell you that they say that it is TRUE that riding is good for arthritic horses.
Again, keeping their musclature strong supports arthritic joints, and keeps them more sound and comfortable. And NO, the excercise a horse gets during turnout does NOT keep their musclature strong. It’s great for horses to live outside and move around all of the time, but it does not build muscle. Ask any good doctor or vet, strong MUSCLES to support the joints are what keeps arthritic joints comfortable.
Wait until you get old enough to have some arthritic joints yourself. And see if you want to “put yourself out to pasture” or take some advil so you can keep working out and keep yourself strong and healthy. :yes:[/QUOTE]
Building up good muscles to support the joints: The problem is that in 99,9 % people are not able to have a horse build muscles and at the same time take care about its joints. Or who has for his not usuable horse a watergym or a horsegym (don’t know the english word - these maschines that have an elastic conveyer belt thing) available ?
And if I am taking advils for my soundness I can clearly detect myself how much I hurt and how much I can take. And even than I am sure (and know from own experience) that my body avoids movements that are hurting me more. If a horse is ridden and by this forced to do even things that are hurting it more it just does not have this kind of freedom to decide !
And honestly I find it even dangerous to ride permnent unsound horses ! A person I know had a horse with some kind of wobbling syndrom or whatever. Sometimes this horse fell in his boxstall due to his illness. But owner put a child on it to ride: Excercise is good for the horse.
I was always watching that not anywhere near understanding. I just saw that child lying under the horse that due to some sort of medication seemed o.k. but nevertheless the malfunctioning body had its moments and stopped functioning. Luckily nothing like that happened when the child sat on that horse. Luckily, at one point her veterinarian saw this riding excercise and owner got a hell of a lecture on that.
I have made a 180 in my thoughts on this over the years. Originally I thought that giving joint injections was bad. Why make the horse ‘suffer’, retire him. ETc Etc.
Then I suffered an accident and had to have a ‘debriment and microfractures’ surgery done. Looking at all the x-rays and mri’s was fascinating, as that is just like a hock. And my injury is in dutch for a horse called ‘spat’. Once the joint fuses, the horse is fine, as it is ‘non-weight bearing’. Yada yada yada.
Well, screw you (not directed at anybody), after having suffered not having enough cartilage, I was and am begging for injections. What had happened is I HADN’T TAKEN ENOUGH NSAIDS, didn’t have ‘enough’ movement, thus not enough scar tissue formed, and I have no cartilage. I had the triamcinolone injections, and thought I was in heaven. No pain, is simply the best. I asked about the halouricacid injections, but you had to be on a specific trial for that, and I wasn’t eligible. Had I had the injections sooner, and kept on the NSAIDS while maintaining activity I probably would have generated enough cartilage/scartissue and wouldn’t be in my current situation.
And now, now I’m on a transplant list, waiting for a piece of cow to show up that is my size, so they can replace the talus.
So, while I don’t think you should ride a horse into the ground, and keep it up with medications. I’m now a firm believer in hock injections. Movement, more then just walking the pasture, for certain types of artheritis, is way better then permanent turn out. When it comes to hock injections one needs to be pro-active, not for preventive measures, but when there is an injury, to give these injections, to keep the cartilage supported, regenerated etc. Your horse would be grateful. My pain got worse, I started doing less, I had less regeneration, so my pain got worse, so I started doing less. ETc ETc.
Not always, Marieke, and not always just any work.
I’ve had two horses with ‘spat’, both had to be retired from more advanced work, and go into a light work program in a pet situation. No showing. One was worse than the other. They are not all the same, not by a long shot. One dropped down to first level, the other wound up pasture and hacking sound.
Depending on where the arthritis is and how aggressive it is, it can be a minor limitation or a disaster. Another one of mine developed arthritis at the site of a juvenile OCD between the two pastern bones - 100% DONE, immediately.
They are ALL different.
EACH CASE WAS DIFFERENT, and it took some effort to work out what type and amount of work kept them comfortable. Dropping down to even third level did NOT keep those horses out of pain. And in fact, I have yet to see anyone with a horse with ‘spat’ that the horse can do ANY WORK they might want. ALL those horses are ‘on a program’. For a time, yes, they all continue more or less the same. But not all stay that way. Many will have ‘spat’ continue to progress and limit more and more what they do.
There are injections and injections, and depending on how they are used they may or may not be in the horse’s best interests. Even cortisone can be good, but used in the usual way (repeatedly without resting the horse) they have been proven to erode cartilage and leave the horse much less well off in the long run.
Most arthritic horses have limitations as to what sort of work and how hard. Most arthritic horses need to be in a program. Probably not getting a wild hair one day and deciding, ‘hey, I want to go gallop three miles’ or ‘I think I’ll jump a bunch of five foot fences’. Not really. The horse is going to be sore and lame. The work needs to be consistent and of an amount and type that helps rather than makes the horse lamer and lamer.
Of course ‘exercise is good for arthritis’. And do you also think that ‘exercise’ can be just anything? Any level, any degree of strenuousness? Or include such hard work that the horse is lamer and in more pain as a result, or becomes more and more disabled? It is just a rationalization for ‘I want to keep showing this horse/making money off this horse’.
I don’t disagree that ‘exercise is good for arthritis’. I have an arthritic hand and exercise is good for it. But guess what? There’s a limitation to how much exercise is good for it. I can’t play the piano for hours and hours, or work with it at certain angles, or do certain things. Excess work that is too strenuous makes it worse, short term and long term.
To even attempt to suggest that the amount of exercise an arthritic horse should have is unlimited in duration and level of effort, and can include any amount of competing at any level, is absurd. YEAH exercise is good for arthritic horses, but it’s very unlikely that it is going to be unlimited, be whatever kind of work the person might want to do, or always involve competing at whatever level anyone might want. Smaller circles, more concussion, more advanced work, galloping, jumping, collection on arthritic hocks - probably not.
It’s usually not in the animals’ best interest for the work to be very strenuous, and very often, competition is out, not just for the actual riding, but also because transporting the horse and having them work on a different surface can cause problems. Arthritic horses are going to have limitations, and the limitations usually increase as time goes on. One has to be very, very smart in deciding what to expect, and not using them too hard.
The amount of comfort the animal has and for how long it is comfortable depends on how appropriate that program is to where the arthritis is, whether it is actively progressing, and how much it hurts the horse. Too much work can cause the arthritis to worsen or spread to other parts of the joint.
Too little movement can cause an animal to be stiff and have less mobility, but too much work is just as bad if not worse.
If riding was so good for any kind of chronic inflammatory process why do you even need a vet or medication? Shouldn’t the condition be self limiting if only you rode/showed him enough? And why is there so much drugging going on in the hunterworld? One would think with all the miles and muscling up those horses should be sound as a button? LOL
No seriously at the end of all veterinary skill (I am not only talking about my own veterinary skill but about horses that have been given up by the highest scale ortopedic specialists) a year of pasture turnout (and when I say pasture I mean permanent group access to many acres of gras not standing around alone and bored on the few squaremeters of dirt that call themselves paddocks) often fixes problems that have been resistant to any type of treatment known in the world of equine medicine. And on the other hand there is no faster way to destroy a horse’s orthopedic soundness than bad riding. Besides while arthritis is one major cause for chronic pain in the horse it is by far not the only one.
If feel the argument is a rather emotional one because many riders can’t bear the inarguable truth that a horse does not need a rider to be happy and healthy.
I am very unemotional about the matter as I don’t rider very actively right now and as a vet and breeder I should be happy about any horse that doesn’t hold up as vets make money treating horses and breeders sell horses to people LOL.
Sorry, but this is a pretty dimwitted question. Once again, the riding not to relieve pain per se, but to keep the horses’ muscles strong, which better supports the joints. The more fit and strong the horse is, the better he will feel. It’s just common medical knowledge for people or animals.
I must say you sound much more like an animal rights activist than a vet. :rolleyes:
And for the record, I would never advise anyone to work a horse that has an injury that causes him to be lame. But when a horse has mild chronic soreness like arthritis (which along with navicular disease is probably the most common cause of mild chronic pain), keeping the horse fit and strong will keep him much more comfortable than simply turning him out to pasture. Horses are athletes, and most (if not all) athletes take pain relieving medication as neccessary, instead of “retiring” when something hurts a little.
You may call it ‘hurting a little’. Others call it unsound. To each their own. As a mecially educated person you do acknowledge that traumata (micro as well as macro) is known to predispose to arthritis and arthrosis later on in life? And you still insist riding necessarily strengthens ‘the muscles’. Which muscles exactly? Because a horse has hundreds of them and like in humans there is a whole separate profession specializing in how to strengthen the ones necessary to support an arthritic joint. To assume having a 60kg+ weight on your back is contributing to a physiotherapeutic approach is - how did you call it? Naive?
I don’t know how it is in your country but here veterinarians take a lot of pride in assisting animal welfare. Preventing riders from bouncing around on unsound horses is a core matter of exactly that. But then ‘de-clawing’ and ‘de-barking’ surgery and ear- or tailcropping is banned here too so I assume it is to a degree a matter of different mentalities.
It doesn’t make any sense though to be more concerned about what happens to a horse after death (namely whether some Frenchman eats it, the carcass gets burned, burried or turned into fertilizer) when at the same token extending a horses tack-time by means of medication is considered acceptable.
It is quite a pity that animal-welfare has been handed to PETA and other extremist parties in your country. Here in Europe it is not as there is much more awareness in the general public and vets and riders attempt to take responsibility.
This is one of the few matters where I am sure life is better where I am. There are other things I thoroughly envy you for over the pond and you have all reason to be proud of. General animal-welfare standards however are not amongst them. Afterall the CW cases have been brought into the public and the footage broadcasted by one of the biggest daily news shows in the country as well as both eq mags and regular press. If it had not been so there would be no discussion.
Equestrian activity other than racing doesn’t seem to get any nationwide media recognition if I am not mistaken the bigger stations don’t even broadcast from the worldchampionships of any discipline. This complete lack of popularity quite certainly has to do with the very attitude displayed in this topic. Anybody who disagrees with your anthropocentric approach (I pop an advil - why not give my horse some too?) is either discredited as an animals-rights activist (how came this term made it into the name-calling category?) or not knowing what they are talking about because you happen to have vet-teched here and there 
I’m sorry but on bulletin boards you have to live with a certain degree of diversity of opinion. Freedom of speech wasn’t that an American invention in the first place?
Having read Kareen and Alexandra over the years, I think that the disagreements they generate have more to do with the perception they are arrogant, rather than any real disagreement with the substance of what they are saying. They both pepper they posts with insulting innuendo and assumptions which elicit the “I want to smack this arrogant b_ _ch into the stone ages” kind of response. If possible, look past the insults to the substance, which in this case reflects a cultural difference in how we value life. It seems that in Europe, slaughter is a viable option; here in the USA it is not. Alexandra needs a better translator, so I’ll ignore the nuances of her arguments here, but Kareen is basically saying that there are so many young sound horses in the world, when yours shows signs of wear and tear and becomes chronically unsound, euthanize it, because it will make room for the next healthy, younger, sounder horse, and euthanasia is more humane then drugging the now defective horse and forcing the poor pathetic animal to carry your “bouncing blubber butt” around on its back. It’s a charmng perspective. :lol: Sort of like, when a worker becomes old and worn, kick him/her out of the work force to make way for the younger healthier worker. When you’re young and healthy, that may be a great perspective. As you get older and show a few of life’s miles, it seems much less appealing.
Kareen, PLEASE do not assume that because one person insists that ‘exercise is good for arthritis’ that we are all over here in the USA flogging lame horses!
MOST horse people here will not insist that any amount of any exercise is alright for a lame horse! MOST of us are not gathering the ribbons while making some poor in pain animal drag us around.
And you have to be careful. Just because lstevenson is so rigidly insisting on this point here, does not mean she is actually forcing lame horses to overwork. Replies here are more about wording and interpersonal dynamics, it is no proof she is actually unethical or abusive. She may have an older horse that is much stiffer if he does not go for his little walk every day, and is over-generalizing from that just to have an argument here. It has happened alot here.
It is true that if a horse is just ‘old’ with nothing really specific going on, that a little light work helps them to loosen up, but even that, eventually, will get to a point where the work has to finish.
The FEI horse I rode a few years ago was indeed, for a time, not lame, but just a little stiff when we started our lessons. Nothing specific, just old age coming on. No more shows, no more long, strenuous workouts. There was a point in time when a little walking and warmup helped him and he was happy and comfortable doing a little work. His ears were up and attitude good, all flexion tests negative.
Then, fairly soon, actually, the owner said, ‘alright, it is enough for him’. She felt we had reached a ‘point of diminishing returns’. And now the horse is out in a pasture for a few hours each day, and going for very light hacks occasionally. And each time she will adjust to exactly what he needs.
And MOST of us in America are not out there making some poor lame or old animal struggle along so a few more miles and a few more lesson or lease dollars can be ground out of it!
EVERY system of animal welfare can always be better, though for sure, I do feel in fact that Germany is in many ways ahead of the USA in general in that area. We have old laws that really limit animal welfare action. Either soon all companion animals will be banned here or those old laws must change.
Something that seems to be missing from this discussion is the horse that loves to work, that becomes depressed and goes off their food when they are given a holiday. While I agree wholeheartedly that a lame horse should not be made to work I think a slightly stiff horse who works through their stiffness and who is miserable if they are not in work does deserve to have maintenance therapy given to them to allow them to continue working.
Perhaps this is where the disagreement lies? There are a whole range of injuries and ailments that can lead to less than 100% soundness. Some of these will be aggravated by work, some such as mild arthritis will be helped. The key is to get advice from a skilled source that can tell you how best to make your older horse comfortable in body and mind.
My 15 year old horse is sound (thank goodness) but I am sure she’s got early arthritis in her hocks. Some days I can almost hear her bones creaking as we work towards the collection needed for PSG. It doesn’t stop her working, she loves to work but it has made me wonder how fair it is to ask her to do this level of work when I think at times she finds it uncomfortable. She has no maintenance therapy except for glucosamine in her food. Bear in mind this is a sound horse who does not step short and would pass as sound under any examination. I’ve chosen to take her out of competition next year and put her in foal. One of the major advantages of having a mare! But what if she was a gelding? That would have been a far harder decision and I may have been tempted to try hock injections to see if that made a difference.
The problem many owners face is that they love the horse they have, they can only afford to keep one horse and they cannot face having a mostly sound horse put down. Which is why there is such an industry for maintaining soundness in older horses. I don’t think this is such a bad thing. Often in life you have to make the best of what you have and if the choice is between vet treatment to make your old horse more comfortable or putting your old horse down while they are still healthy (I rule out selling because a not 100% sound horse will not sell) the vet treatment is the kinder option for the horse.
Cartier - I don’t know where you got the “when a horse goes lame, slaughter it!” from Kareen’s posts… I read that she suggested putting the horse in a large field with other horses to get better…
I absolutely agree that this is a country of overmedication - it starts with people and spills over to animals. Open up any horse magazine and you’re innundated with ads for joint remedies and other medications all designed to keep your equine going in the face of lameness or other discomforts. It’s a huge business! And that’s just the stuff above the table…
And don’t even get me started on declawing and cropping!! I know that Cartier (used to?) shows and breeds Dobermans and am willing to bet money on the fact that all of her dogs have been cropped and docked. That’s ok? It was refreshing to see a Great Dane with uncropped ears win the breed at the recent National Dog Show - especially since breeders will tell you that you can’t win with an uncropped dog.
I don’t know where we lost the time to let things heal. Whatever happened to giving a horse 6 month or a year off to recover? Whatever happened to our empathy?
Well in some cases pasture turnout prevents healing, and in some cases. doing nothing except turning out doesn’t get at the injury and treat it specifically enough. Research has shown SOME injuries heal better when treated medically and with confinement. Today, some injuries are legitimately treated differently than a year of pasture rest, for very good reasons.
Others, clearly, do not, and I haven’t noticed anything happening to our collective empathy, horses still get turned out to heal when appropriate, at least mine and quite a few other people’s do. Quite a few friends are maintaining retired horses permanently on pasture for the rest of the animal’s lives.
There are injuries that are helped by pasturing. I’m not too young to remember hearing old timers call pasture rest ‘Dr. Green’, especially for chronic upper respiratory problems, overtraining, etc. But even back then you didn’t see experienced horsemen chuck any and all lame or injured horse out in a field to heal up!
It used to be that pasture rest was all there was for most injuries. Years ago we did not use imaging techniques like today, horses were quite often just chucked out in the field and one would cross one’s fingers and hope for the best, without knowing exactly what the injury was or if moving around in a large field in a herd really was the best for the injury or not. Often it wasn’t the best thing, or would result in a much, much longer healing process with more reinjuring and a result that wasn’t necessarily as good as it could be.
Don’t know where you get your information, but you make some inaccurate assumptions. You and I may be more in agreement than you realize. We are actively involved in showing and have owned, bred and shown Great Danes, Giant Schnauzers and Dobermans. An uncropped Great Dane is very competitive in our show rings today. I wish that were true of Dobermans… it may be soon. FYI, the AVMA came out recently opposing cropping and docking. The practice started in Europe decades and decades ago… in part it came out of the dog fighting pitt. I personally hate it, but it is fashion. We use a licensed veterinarian to crop and dock our puppies, she is arguably the best in this country… it is a huge expensive effort to get our puppies to her 800 miles away… we spend about $500 per puppy, this vet’s surgical technique is superb and we use palliative after care… we do everything possible to make our puppies comfortable, but even so, I dread the process. Still, it is the “look” of a Doberman that people expect. Honestly, I will be pleased when it is banned here. Others may strongly disagree, but in my opinion, cropping and docking are elective surgeries that we can do without, but then, so is castration… we do one for fashion and the other for our convenience.
[QUOTE=siegi b.;3725939]Cartier - I don’t know where you got the “when a horse goes lame, slaughter it!” from Kareen’s posts… [/QUOTE] Good point, but I didn’t write what you are claiming I wrote. I mentioned a “chronically unsound” horse… not merely a lame horse. To me there is a significant difference.
AS for my summary of Kareen’s lack af aversion to euthanasia, it is grounded in part in her posts and in part on the assessment (made over the years) that Europeans (including Kareen) tend to see horses as a commodity (like dairy cattle, hogs, chickens) and we tend to see horses as family members and life long companions, which might explain why we are so willing to go to extraordinary $$$ lengths to keep them around for so so so long. For example, we have a 27 year old mare in our pasture that many would have probably euthanized. That is simply not an option for us. I am not claiming that one perspective is superior to another… rather, that the perspectives (and the choices a society allows) reflect what is acceptable within the community. We do not allow slaughter in this country. I am not commenting whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. But it does remove an option.
