German ex-toprider caught (again) on hidden camera (*warning* horse abuse)

[QUOTE=slc2;3688495]
I am not sure I have seen so many baseless breed prejudices and unfair over-generalizations all in one place in a long, long time.[/QUOTE]

Clearly blue domino is trying to start something. TB were bred to race and like that is good for their joints or mind for that matter:lol::lol::lol: :eek: Dressage horses don’t hit the ground hard nor do they break down in the middle of the ring like lets say TB do on the race track. You know nothing about TB because you wouldn’t be saying the things you are if you did. MY GOD what do you think goes on at most race tracks…SIGH and ROTFLMAO a warmblood would drop their shoulder and the jockey would roll right off:)

Translation?

can anybody translate it to english, cuz i want to no what that guy was saying that was leaning on the fence defending her.

I wish the horse she was on would have flipped on her and rolled around on her and stepped all over her when it got up. What a wretched human being!

MY god.

You can never believe that someone trained in higher level riding would be like that. I swear what was the poor thing doing wrong. All I can say is that kind of things make you realize how kind horses really are. His only defense to her constant attack was to buck. He looked like a nice horse. That woman has a mental problem. I have to say if you repeatedly beat on some TBs like that they will go after you. I think its just so sad. Made me cry. :cry:

BD, your accusations and broad statements are also just a little bit embarrassingly ignorant. Especially for one with as little experience as you described yourself having, it’s cutting a little bit of a comical public figure. My horses have never had joint injections.

[QUOTE=Blue Domino;3688548]
I bet you’re horse gets joint lubricant shots.[/QUOTE]

Huh? Is maintenance of older horses a BAD thing? Most horses who are over the age of about 12 experience varying levels of arthritic changes. Hock injections are a great way to help these horses maintain comfort while they continue to work. Getting a horse to the upper levels requires a lot of TIME - being able to keep them sound and working once they finally get there is a positive thing, isn’t it?

By the way, I do know many Tbreds (and all kinds of other breeds) that get hock injections, Adequan, or other joint lubrication treatment! And - don’t accuse me of being a Warmblood fanatic - read my other posts, I believe MANY breeds are capable of competing and doing well in the sports disciplines.

Submissive Warmbloods? Watch some video of current upper level rides. The “Warmbloods” are very much like hotbloods now! They aren’t easy rides, they are sensitive, athletic horses - some of them are almost all Thoroughbred!

I don’t think the guy knows the difference. It’s kind of like the old farmer asking Dr Herriot, ‘Aren’t you going to give the horse an ‘injection’?’ as if injections are magically good, generic ‘things’ that cure everything.

And to others, all injections are generically ‘bad’.

That’s because they lack information. There is no science and no knowledge behind EITHER position.

There are joint injections given to keep older horses comfortable, in a light and appropriate level of work. Injections like hyaluronic acid improve the quality of the joint fluid and actually slow down the arthritic process.

There are also other joint injections - such as cortisone, given to keep a horse in an unreasonable level of work, without rest or rehabbing the injury, and these actually can erode the cartilage if given repeatedly and without resting the animal. Sometimes dozens of these are given over time, with the aim or concealing an increasingly severe arthritic process that the medication is actually worsening.

This was long a problem in horse racing and in various riding styles. I have pictures from vet journals of the kind of cartilage erosion that occurs when repeated cortisone injections are given without rehab and rest. It would make any reasonable person’s hair stand on end.

However, even cortisone injections can actually be beneficial for an injured animal, increasing the healing process. The problem is they are abused, the horse may be given cortisone repeatedly without rest, either to make sure he gets into a given competition, or to get him sold too some unsuspecting novice.

That medications are abused and misused (all medications have been misused by someone at some time in history) does not change what they do, or how they could be used.

For many people, all older horses should be out in a pasture. However, many older horses are actually far better off in light, reasonable work, not everyone has pasture, and not all pastures are actually all that suitable - rough rutted ground, especially when frozen or muddy, can be murder on certain arthritic processes. No one arrangement is right for all horse owners and all horses.

And comfort, actually, is something that people nowadays consider with horses - so that horses in light, reasonable work get anti inflammatory medication, hyaluronic acid injections, etc, without that being unethical, cruel or whatever.

There are even people who give injections of hyluron as a preventative to healthy horses. It isn’t yet clear to me that preventative injections of such things will really completely prevent or control an injury process from developing or progressing. I prefer to rely on careful conditioning, good footing, and good management.

There are also a growing number of therapies for equine injuries. Shock wave and a number of modalities can really help horses heal, when used with appropriate rehab.
Proper use of medications for therapeutic reasons is never wrong. That some people choose to abuse medications, does not mean that medications are wrong or bad.

what website did you pull all your info off of:rolleyes:

Is it just dressage?

Blue Domino - Is it just dressage you are against riding horses all together? I am an ex upper-level eventer - who loves TB’s too. The track and the event world (and I would assume - though I don’t know 1st hand) the Jumper world all heavily use injections. Professional atheletes use similar injections to make themselves more comfortable. wouldn’t it be cruel not to do the same for our horses?

Well, the usual argument is at what point the use of medication becomes excessive, unethical, or just plain overdoing it.

People tend to see the logic of keeping an animal comfortable for light use that doesn’t involve competition, but the regular injection of substances that lead to the long term erosion of the joint and a program of aggressive training in the face of joint issues, together with repeated misuse of medication taht long term leave the horse more disabled, that’s a point of argument as to whether that’s ethical or not.

When ‘keeping the horse comfortable’ means giving injections just so the animal can be shown, not to keep it comfortable, but to keep it limping along when it should be dropped down or retired, and trainer stalks the show grounds to be sure the drug test people haven’t randomly shown up at this little USEF or schooling show before he does his magic so he can be sure his customer will give him his fifty bucks for schooling…most people have a point at which they say that’s unethical.

The fact is, and I bet Blue Domino doesn’t know this, that the FEI has such a sensitive drug radar that tiny amounts of medication picked up from the environment, or liniment have even gotten people disqaulified and stripped of Olympic medals. The FEI has a zero tolerance, but most people aren’t showing FEI. And I’m sure he doesn’t also know that quite a few older schoolmaster horses that people buy to learn on, are comfortable teaching someone to ride, with a little medication and occasional injections of hyluron, and that’s no more than what I’d do to keep myself comfortable.

I’m starting to develop a very amusing visual of how much BD’s new European dressage riding instructor is going to enjoy teaching him, LOL.

[QUOTE=Blue Domino;3688548]
I bet you’re horse gets joint lubricant shots.[/QUOTE]

This is a very peculliar and seemingly random statement.

Blue Domino you make some of the most off base sweeping generalizations I have heard in a while. I have seen TBs take horrible abuse without killing anyone. Horses in general will put up with an awful lot regardless of the breed. And I honestly don’t think this is why there aren’t a lot of TBs in upper level Dressage stardom. How about the gaits, the conformation, the natural talent for the sport etc? But I am not responding to you to talk about TBs.

I give all my horses joint injections. I put them on Adequan when they are like 4 even when they have clean xrays and are totally sound. I use it as a preventitive and to keep my horses happy as long as possible. I have done this with horses used for both jumping and dressage. To me it is worth the money. I also give them oral supplements. There is no shame in that.

Sure having your horses hocks injected over and over and working the crap out of that horse may not be prudent or humane, but Adequan and Legend are.

I have certainly seen many many TBs that are bought by someone after a race career and are already in my opinion creaky and not totally sound and who are ridden badly for years and years without the benefit of joint injections. Horses with chronic back issues, stifle issues, hock issue, big ankles whatever, hobbling around with someone who doesn’t ask them to passage but still asks a lot of an uncomfortable animal. Horses that someone either got free or for a few thousand dollars and the owner either doesn’t have the $$ to maintain the horse properly or does not see the value in it. Those poor horses are much more unlucky than my dressage warmbloods who I will do anything to keep as sound and comfortable as possible.

Conversely, there are plenty of TBs out there who are well maintained, well ridden and well cared for. There are good horseowners and riders in all disciplines and then there are the scary ones. Most horses on the other hand are saints and will put up with way too much.

:wink:

[QUOTE=Blue Domino;3688465]
When a WB goes past me on the rail shaking the earth making my stadiam seat rattle while he’s doing a piaff or passage.

I know that he’s damaging his joints hitting the ground so hard. I know his dressage is a farce. I know he’s keeping some veterinarian employeed with pain killers and drug companies in business with artificial joint lubricant.

A TB would rebel before he’d hit a foot to the gound and make the stadium seats rattle. It would have to be done with lightness, true dressage. That’s why you don’t see TB’s out there. That’s why a WB will rattle your seat going past.

Most if not all old school masters, they have infirmity issues from the lifetime of false dressage. You won’t find old upper level crippled TB schoolmasters to be had. They wouldn’t tolerate the abuse to begin with.[/QUOTE]

No matter what the breed, a horse is a horse subject to all equine diseases and ailments. Some breeds are more pre-disposed to certain ills more than others perhaps, but also conformation can lend itself to predisposition of navicular as an example. Thoroughbreds, while sensitive, are quite successful in dressage. Lots of horses, including Thoroughbreds have their hocks injected for one reason or another…breed is irrelevant.

Truly horrifying and very, very sad. Most of us who have been in the horse world have undoubtedly seen some bad stuff …but this one takes the prize.

Can a horse ever be normal again after enduring this type of abuse? Who were the owners of these horses? :frowning:

[QUOTE=slc2;3689019]
Well, the usual argument is at what point the use of medication becomes excessive, unethical, or just plain overdoing it.

People tend to see the logic of keeping an animal comfortable for light use that doesn’t involve competition, but the regular injection of substances that lead to the long term erosion of the joint and a program of aggressive training in the face of joint issues, together with repeated misuse of medication taht long term leave the horse more disabled, that’s a point of argument as to whether that’s ethical or not.

When ‘keeping the horse comfortable’ means giving injections just so the animal can be shown, not to keep it comfortable, but to keep it limping along when it should be dropped down or retired, and trainer stalks the show grounds to be sure the drug test people haven’t randomly shown up at this little USEF or schooling show before he does his magic so he can be sure his customer will give him his fifty bucks for schooling…most people have a point at which they say that’s unethical.

The fact is, and I bet Blue Domino doesn’t know this, that the FEI has such a sensitive drug radar that tiny amounts of medication picked up from the environment, or liniment have even gotten people disqaulified and stripped of Olympic medals. The FEI has a zero tolerance, but most people aren’t showing FEI. And I’m sure he doesn’t also know that quite a few older schoolmaster horses that people buy to learn on, are comfortable teaching someone to ride, with a little medication and occasional injections of hyluron, and that’s no more than what I’d do to keep myself comfortable.

I’m starting to develop a very amusing visual of how much BD’s new European dressage riding instructor is going to enjoy teaching him, LOL.[/QUOTE]

My new German dressage instructor and I get along very well thankyou. I’m quite aware that the very sport which claims that it is the discipline which by slow and methodical exercise makes a horse fit and sound late in his life, that dressage is good for a horse.

What a joke these days. The more dressage they do, the more likely they need some kind of injection. All because a face oriented bunch of heretics to the true spirit of dressage have taken over dressage.

All of you out there injecting your horse with drugs to keep him going, whether you’re an eventer, jumper, dressager, whatever.

You have sinned against good horsemanship. Had you trained right, and progressively, had you not asked a horse to do more than he was able to to, you wouldn’t need to inject your horse with strange drugs.

You drugging your horse to keep him going, after you asked to much of him to cripple him to begin with? YOU’RE NOT ONE BIT DIFFERENT THAN THE LADY ABUSING THE HORSE AS THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD. That’s my sincere opinion.:eek:

People inject their horses because they can. Horses have always gotten sore in the legs later in life, but now we have ways to keep them comfortable and working. Is that really so wrong?

I’m 42 and pop glucosamine and advil like it was going out of style, yet I’m not thinking it’s because I over did the athletic pursuits :wink:

[QUOTE=Blue Domino;3700260]
My new German dressage instructor and I get along very well thankyou. I’m quite aware that the very sport which claims that it is the discipline which by slow and methodical exercise makes a horse fit and sound late in his life, that dressage is good for a horse.

What a joke these days. The more dressage they do, the more likely they need some kind of injection. All because a face oriented bunch of heretics to the true spirit of dressage have taken over dressage.

All of you out there injecting your horse with drugs to keep him going, whether you’re an eventer, jumper, dressager, whatever.

You have sinned against good horsemanship. Had you trained right, and progressively, had you not asked a horse to do more than he was able to to, you wouldn’t need to inject your horse with strange drugs.

You drugging your horse to keep him going, after you asked to much of him to cripple him to begin with? YOU’RE NOT ONE BIT DIFFERENT THAN THE LADY ABUSING THE HORSE AS THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD. That’s my sincere opinion.:eek:[/QUOTE]

MY SINCERE OPINION IS, YOU HAVE NO CLUE AND REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND MUCH IN THE WAY OF HORSEMANSHIP. YOUR OVER-GENERALIZATION JUST SHOWS YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING. NO WORRIES THE WORLD IS MADE UP OF PLENTY OF YOU WHO VIEW THINGS IN ONLY BLACK AND WHITE WITH NO ROOM FOR GREY.

Blue domino, what is this HS you’re accusing me of? And how is you putting your out of shape overweight body on a horse any different than all the stuff you so self righteously accuse people of doing?

[QUOTE=slc2;3701130]
Blue domino, what is this HS you’re accusing me of? And how is you putting your out of shape overweight body on a horse any different than all the stuff you so self righteously accuse people of doing?[/QUOTE]

Tell ya what Slick, I just assum the slc stands for Slick Too. Sticking a horse in the hock with needles because he’s lame because his dressage was heretical, wrong, false dressage. Sticking the needle in is pure evil. Just plain evil.