German Riding Ponies-Stallions, market, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nwalk:
Here is a question for those of you who have already produced sport ponies for a few years. How is the market for weanlings and yearlings? Do crossbred (pony X WB or TB) young horses sell or do you need to keep them until they are going under saddle to get them sold at the price you want? Do purebred sport ponies (New Forrest X New Forrest) (GRP X GRP) (Welsh X
Welsh) sell better as weanlings and yearlings than the crossbreds? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

About 50/50 for me, Nancy. I don’t have one yet who’s old enough to go under saddle (winter of 3yo year), and have sold 50% of what I’ve produced in the last 3 years as weanlings or yearlings. I now have a filly and a gelding coming 3, so we’ll see. I’ve found in the past with the wb’s, and the ponies too so far, that I personally do better selling them as youngsters, because training fees enter into the equation at that point. And frankly, unless you have a top of the mark hunter pony winning its division, you most likely aren’t going to make much. But I think the enjoyment is so worth it anyway, it’s just that in the near future I’d like to really enjoy it on a much smaller scale !!

Leah, I goofed (creeping senility ). I was remembering the initial ISR inspection with the walk, trot, canter under saddle. The ASPR did not require any under saddle/driving for the initial license. As I recall ASPR does require a performance test of some sort, but I thought it could be done at the inspection itself. If you do find out the specific requirements and levels for dressage, jumping, driving, etc, could you post them here? Also, if they need to actually compete and place with certain scores, do more than one discipline, etc?
I apologize again for the misinformation.

There is a GRP stallion standing near Cambridge, Ontario called Benno’s Hit. He was imported in 2003 and stood his first season last year. Our 14.2 Trak/Morgan mare is in foal to him due June 23. We’re hoping it stays under 14.2! It’s her first baby so we’re kinda hoping the maiden thing keeps it small.

Kareen…if they go over, aren’t they considered E ponies and don’t you have classes specifically for these over sized ponies?

What Benno points out is important. The pony breeders here absolutely do not want the ones that are growing ‘out of the measure’ (meaning 1,48m) as the upscale market is only for ‘real ponies’ (which are 1,48m and below) while the taller ones often have to be sold for very cheap simply because they are considered an ‘in between’ size that will not be allowed to compete in the pony division and at the same time is in danger to be shortchanged in dressage scores from L-level upwards as the common assumption is that a horse needs a certain frame to ‘fill out’ a dressage ring (as stupid as it may sound).

Re. licensing you would of course be entitled to call your Welsh Cob ‘licensed GRP’ that means nothing more or less than that he is approved for GRP breeding. It doesn’t make him a GRP (if he is a purebred Welsh Cob then that’s what he is) but he can still be ‘licensed GRP’
The partbred thing is different. The term partbred has to be applied to any Welsh that is not purebred. So a pony can at the same time be a GRP and a Welsh-partbred.

This is fascinating. Thanks to all for the information regarding mare selection!

Leslie, you’ve got e-mail.

I am on the West Coast and have also “scaled” my breeding program from full-size to pony size.
At this time, as I have an approved ISR/OLD stallion I am crossing with pony mares (Sec.B Welsh and this past year Connemara) - our first colt (2003) sold quickly as a dressage and possible breeding prospect. He did very well at inspections and Karsten thought he had a good chance of staying true pony size. Must say I like the 2004 colt even better and he also looks to be in the 14-14.2 range. As others have noted, this is hopefully a strongly growing/prtomising market BUT I think one of many important concerns is the availability of trainers to bring our smaller offspring along. At almost 5’11 I am a little too leggy for the small youngsters…and of course good trainers (for any size) are always an issue…

Well to add a little more substance to this topic toward Sport Ponies generally, I thought I would share a website I found on Sport Ponies.

What is significant to me personally is the notion of how important the Downland lines have been (as my foundation mare is a D Chevalier daughter)in producing Sport Ponies for Olympic Disciplines …and might I add, not just in Germany people!! This is a French site & URL is below.
http://www.poneydesport.com/Elevage/downland.php
Now the text is in French but the pictures are marvellous.

Here is the first paragraph deciphered into English from French(somewhat broken in parts due to my interpretation tool):
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Welsh ponies of the Downland line incredibly marked the history of the pony in general and that of the pony of sport in particular. They marked the breedings in the United Kingdom, France, the Netherlands, Germany and Sweden, in all the Olympic disciplines and this, on the most level of the European competition. One also finds many others aficionados in the United States, in Australia, New Zealand

Within the very many production resulting from the Downland breeding, DOWNLAND CHEVALIER has an exceptional prize list of descendants for the sport <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Enjoy!

hluing…yes, Donarweiss is awesome. To put the DeNiro/Hohenstein blood into a pony…oh I can’t wait (she is due mid-April)! Donarweiss is approved RPSI SB I. He was going to do their 30 day test this year, but it ended up being canceled, so he will be going in 05. He is a super mover and also has a great jump. For this year, I have narrowed it down to two (I think). I’m considering either Benno’s Dream or Forrest Flame. They are both lovely, so I don’t think I could go wrong with either of them! As for the RPSI registry, I have found them very easy to work with. My foal from this past year is registered RPSI. Their website is alittle on the thin side, as Jo Anne prefers to answer people’s questions directly. But she is always very helpful and very quick to respond. Plus, since the US branch is part of the German verband the horses are registered in Germany and receive Germany papers/passport. I have found their inspection team to be very good. It is the same people you see at their licensing in Germany, so it provides consistancy. I think their pony division is growing and I hope they do alittle more to publicize it in the future. The pony division has a seperate brand, which can be seen on the German site. It is the oak leaf (second one in).

pwynnorman…interesting question:
I have kinda thought of GRP’s as being dressage and jumper oriented (like their larger wb counterparts). I don’t lump them into our normal pony hunter market as the movement is different. I think the market for dressage ponies is growing, so that might be why most of the GRP’s mentioned are mostly dressage based. Although I thought Exitpoint was importing a Westfalian (spelling? ) pony stallion which was more of a jumper type…and from the pictures I saw…that pony could really jump! I get the sense that the dressage pony market is a niche waiting to be filled. I am seeing more and more young kids riding at dressage shows. Plus, I think as more and more adults go back to riding after decades away, the larger ponies with big WB movement will be appealing. So I guess time will tell.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nwalk:
Here is a question for those of you who have already produced sport ponies for a few years. How is the market for weanlings and yearlings? Do crossbred (pony X WB or TB) young horses sell or do you need to keep them until they are going under saddle to get them sold at the price you want? Do purebred sport ponies (New Forrest X New Forrest) (GRP X GRP) (Welsh X Welsh) sell better as weanlings and yearlings than the crossbreds? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I’ve been able to sell everything, both cross-breds and purebreds, for fairly good money. We sell almost all as weanlings, but only produce about 3-4 per year. The only ones I haven’t sold are the ones I’m either looking for very special homes for, or else I’ve decided to keep them for breeding stock.

Well this may be the time for those pony breeders who belong to the ISR/OLDNA to write some emails, letters to the registry regarding the performance requirements for sportpony stallions. The registry has shown some latitude as they are trying to expand the pony division and bring in more bloodlines. I personally feel 3rd level in Dressage is adequate for the ponies (given we cannot have adults ride the stallions). I have to look up the Pony Jumper requirements to see what those are - but am I right in assuming children can’t ride there either?? And on the hunters - someone actively involved should weigh in. As far as 3 day - Training level?? And on driving - I’m clueless.

The more input to the registry on this the more information they have to consider.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ~K:

I’ve got a welsh question -

What happens to a purebred section B who goes over 14.2??? I have NEVER seen a welsh section B advertised that is over pony sized!!! Do people just not advertise it - or do they go into the ‘cob’ division???

Do A’s that go over size go into the B division???

First of all, in Europe, a B would never go over 14.2, because the cut off is 13.2…but of course, Americans think bigger is better, right? If a B goes over 14.2 h, then s/he becomes a) a purebred pony who stays behind the barn, or b) a registered half-welsh. The Sections C & D (Cobs), have totally different bloodlines than the B’s and the basic rule is that they shouldn’t be mixed.

Section A’s that go over height, either remain A’s, but are not shown (kept behind the barn, again) or become Section B’s.

PWynn…there are a couple of Welsh yahoo groups, for Welsh enthusiasts…WMP2 and PonyCob.

Continuing the intriguing speculation, would you folks say that the Australian riding pony is a bit lighter in bone and perhaps movement (vs. oh-I-dunno…“powerful” or something like that?) than the GRP? Also, I have the impression that the Aussie pony has a bit less of the warmblood attitude?

You know, the “adults to ride” approach and market is a great one, but do you folks think that message is getting out there that much? For example, on the AWSPR (or one of those registries) site, the standards for the sportpony still emphasize “kids to ride”. Maybe that wording (and hence that apparent emphasis) needs to be changed/updated?

Ilona…it would be helpful to know what the performance requirements and time frame are for the ponies. Please if you can…post them and/ or have them posted on the ISR/Old web site.
Are you planning on sending your guy to the 2006 30 day testing or performance route?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GriffinDressage:
For those breeding sport ponies for Dressage, what do you do if the pony goes over height? Is it possible to still have a breeding prospect registered as a pony if it does go over? Also, is there going to be any section E registration as there is in Germany (from my understanding)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If a pony bred for dressage goes over height, it doesn’t much matter for the smaller women. The only market going over height is a problem with would be FEI pony dressage and most of the other pony specific disciplines, like pony hunters and pony jumpers. These days more and more women who are getting older (and shorter, like myself ) want the smaller sized horses or ponies, and the exact 14.2h thing isn’t an issue for them. And yes, an over height pony still be approved by most registries for breeding stock. I don’t know about the section E registration in the U.S., but I’d say probably not.

These are great posts…thanks everyone.
While most of my mares are in the 14hh range, I will also be breeding a 15.1 hh Trak.by Martini this year. I have been speaking to the Weser-ems registry and they are suggesting a section B Welsh. I have appreciated the links to Welsh stallions, and if there are any more you all admire, let me know.
Thanks! Heather

Here is a question for those of you who have already produced sport ponies for a few years. How is the market for weanlings and yearlings? Do crossbred (pony X WB or TB) young horses sell or do you need to keep them until they are going under saddle to get them sold at the price you want? Do purebred sport ponies (New Forrest X New Forrest) (GRP X GRP) (Welsh X Welsh) sell better as weanlings and yearlings than the crossbreds?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Who are the pony breeders in this country with similar Welsh bloodlines?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only one of THE most popular, high dollar lines of all time: Carolinas Red Fox and all those “Foxes.” (Note, however, that Cymraeg Rainbeau does NOT have Downland, which might be why he’s such a great cross on the Foxes (or Farnley Lustre is, that is–for hunter ponies).

[Hey, in looking that up, I jsut discovered that Blue Rain (standing at Ashmont for $1500) is “linebred” to Farnley Lustre (his grandsire on top and bottom). Interesting.]

Downland Rembrandt, standing at Glenhaven, is another–unlike Red Fox, he’s Downland top and bottom.

BTW, speaking of BRP, what ever happened to Betty Fox down in Citra, FL? I looked at her BRP stallions about 15 years ago–she must have been one of the first importers. Haven’t heard much from of hers lately. Did she retire?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Does anyone else have pics to share? Jennifer and her foal are beautiful.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

www.RainbowFarm.com/2004foals.html has one filly by Wicked Courtjester, one by Forrest Flame and one by *Telynau Braveheart, who was ASPR National Futurity Reserve Champion.

And then if someone would kick me or slap me or send me an e-mail or a pm, I might remember to update my foals page, since they have all done their inspections now and I have more recent photos…

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted Jan. 18, 2005 01:04 PM
So, to be breeding these types of ponies, what types/sizes should the mares be? Is it better to have a “medium” mare to breed to the “large” stallions? What do you breed to if you have a “large” mare…perhaps one of those 14.3 wobblers and you don’t want to “go Welsh”? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that if you breed to a stallion around or under 14.2h, such as a German Riding Pony, that has been specifically bred to that size for generations, that you can safely breed a large pony mare, as long as she doesn’t have alot of size behind her. Breeding to a 14 plus hand F1 cross, however, would be more of a gamble, imo.

[quote] posted Jan. 18, 2005 02:11 PM
Barb, I thought someone had already posted that kids CAN ride pony stallions in dressage and jumper classes, and that it’s only HUNTER classes where kids can’t ride stallions. Did I miss something? {/quote]

Not in pony jumpers, just in dressage and eventing, as far as I know. I checked about the kids and stallions rule with usdf, and they have no rule against it. I have not nailed this kid/stallion thing down with USEF yet. I was wanting to have a child show my 12h stallion in a couple of years, so I was thoroughly check what disciplines he could have a child show him in. I have come up with dressage, eventing and driving, unless someone knows something I haven’t found yet. Stallions USED TO BE able to be ridden in pony jumpers, but when the pony hunter committee (USEF) took over the pony jumpers, stallions were outlawed. Kids can ride stallions in Junior Jumpers though - go figure that one out! I find this very annoying, in case y’all hadn’t noticed