German Riding Ponies-Stallions, market, etc.

[Wowelsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by benno:
…ASPR has no requirements for stallion licensing other than the initial inspection which can occur as early as 2 years old. The judges’ evaluation at that inspection is what determines “yea” or “nay”. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I’m sorry, but this is totally false. The ASPR does allow stallions to receive a temporary breeding liscense, after their initial inspection (age 2 or after). However, in order to receive his permanent breeding liscense, the stallion must complete his performance requirements, within 3 years (either by show record or a performance test) and must also produce 10 First Premium foals, within that time frame.

I often hear people comment that the ASPR has way too many stallions “approved”, but when you look at those who actually have thier permanent breeding liscenses, it is on par with the ISR, etc.

[Lesley_Feakins]

Tiki…I can relate. Why is it you always see the “must haves” when your barn is full.

Linda - Jennifer has had two foals both by Wicked. She and Forrest are related, they share the same sire, Carlo. This last foal was a colt (now gelded) and is the double of Mom.

[maple_brook]

Wow, lovely foal! I have also drooled over Jennifer for awhile. Who is the sire of the foal? Wicked or Forrest?

[Wowelsh]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Home Again Farm:
…Question?? What size mares are used to produce such ponies? Is there a shortage of suitable mares here in the states? I would want pony size but horse gaits and impression. How does one go about this.
… <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have a stunning 2 y.o. filly who is exactly what is needed in a fantastic sport pony mare. I just aquired her…she is palomino and by Ollie…a HUGE mover and absolutely stunning. I bought her as a resale, but she is completely winning me over. I keep saying I’m going to move into strictly purebreds, but every time I turn around, I find another cross-bred that I can’t do without <sigh> .

So little time, so many ponies!

This is the only halfway decent pic I got of her (the day I brought her home)…unfortunately, my hubby got into the shot.

[pwynnnorman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I’m so confused as to what a German Riding Pony really is, can someone clarify? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I think this could be an intriguing thing to discuss, in light of the US market for ponies.

GRPs, in my mind (silly of me, however, since I’ve met all of 0 of them!) are “different” (perhaps?) from other types because (ideally?) they are REALLY GOOD DRESSAGE-TYPE MOVERS…

[Y’all correct me if I’m wrong, of course. I’m just in a speculatin’ mood!]

I’ve yet to hear a lot on the jump–using England’s pony jumpers as examples (and the fact that PJs don’t have to move as well, but the inspection process doesn’t “weigh” jump to the same extent as movement–more speculatin’ there, of course–GRPs at the moment seem to have a dressage and driving market more so than a hunter-jumper-eventer one…at the moment.

The pics I’ve seen of GRPs show much higher forehands (wunnerful in the general sense, tough to lower for hunters) that may impact the role they and their offspring will play in this country. There are quite a few Welsh bloodlines with GRP traits (GRPs having used considerable welsh blood, after all), but those lines aren’t terribly popular for h-j, as it turns out (mainly due to those light, uphill toplines and engaged, active, well-articulated joints–oh, and the built-in forwardness, perhaps…potentially intimidating for our pony hunter and even get-me-an-AQHA-type tykes).

Not that there’s anything wrong with that! I’m just thinking that for the time being, they may be a collector’s item until the sportpony market has a few more outlets for its products (like a more vibrant pony jumper division).

Please don’t take offense. I’m just speculating, OK???

[Rainbow_Farm_Unltd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nwalk:
…is trying to purchase a Caspian stallion prospect, and so I started looking into them to cross on my warmblood mare. They seem to be more refined than some of the other pony breeds - actually look like little horses rather than ponies. But it does not appear that the Germans or the Dutch use them in their sport pony breeding program. I wonder why not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always figure the Europeans have reasons for why they’ve been doing what they’ve been doing. I have a brief article called “What Is A Sport Pony?” in the Articles section of Ponyworld.net that is a bit of history on the European Reitpony. It could be that Caspian’s in general (not talking specific individuals) don’t have the suspension, and it could be as simple as Caspians aren’t readily available in Europe. But it could also be their size, because, as has been pointed out before, the Section A Welsh is not approved by some of the sport pony registries because they are simply not big enough to compete at the levels necessary for ponies. There are few if any Section A Welsh in the Reitpony either, and not a whole lot of wb, actually, but some for sure. The Reitpony is primarily Welsh B (quite a bit of Downland prefix) crossed with tb and arab and some New Forest, although alot of the New Forest ponies, who are the correct size (14.2h range), have stayed purebred.

[Home_Again_Farm]

I am quite intrigued by the German Riding Ponies. Right now I am breeding bigger warmblloods - not behemoths, but ladies horses of about 16.1-16.3. But someday, I would love to try these marvelous ponies.

Question?? What size mares are used to produce such ponies? Is there a shortage of suitable mares here in the states? I would want pony size but horse gaits and impression. How does one go about this.

Leslie, I saw Forest Flame last weekend at Canterbury. He looked wonderful and Jill did a great job with him!! You must be thrilled to have such a wonderful young stallion. Good luck with him!

[Lesley_Feakins]

posted Jan. 11, 2005 10:45 AM
Benno wrote:

quote:

Mary Lou - in Germany, the German Riding Pony mares are typically large pony size just as are the stallions, but a bit smaller, maybe 14H or 14.1H. Some of them are large, oversize, etc.

So do people have such mares here in the states (German Riding Pony mares), or are they using Welsh, etc for their mare base? I have learned in my Hanoverian breeding that the mare is the base on which all is built. Where does one find such mares that would be a truly valuable basis for a German Riding Pony breeding program here? Do already established breeders have fillies for sale, or is this a program that is still so young that breeders hang onto the fillies for themselves? Inquiring minds want to know.

Mary Lou

I think there are very few GRP registered mares (I maybe wrong). We just happen to have two for sale one that is ready to pop(foal) in March) Most people are going the route of getting their mares approved for breeding with the Sport Pony Registries of their choice and depending on the registry requirements there is quite a variation in breed and type (in my opinion). I agree with you 100% on the mare base being what your breeding program is built on. If you have an approved and performance tested sport pony mare…you already have a jump start on your breeding program. The breeders with the TB mares and the WB mares have little choice than to go with the Section A’s or small Section B’s (again in my opinion) and have them approved as 3 yr olds. The right type small Arab mare would be a nice start to a mare base and certainly the right type nice Section B mare or even Arab/Welsh X. Our mare foundation is the New Forest Pony…I know the breed well and feel they have all the characteristics I was looking for for our breeding program.
If I were looking in the US…I would probably start watching fillies go thru the breed inspections in the summer/fall, follow the results and I think as Wowelsh did, consider buying something from there.

Nancy…unfortunately Forrest will not be able to make a stop over in Georgia on his way back up. I do hope to get down there to visit him but it’s so difficult to get away. Four out of our 9 foals start arriving in March…so I have to be here and then I’m tied to the farm until usually late summer. He appears to be doing well. Canterbury was his first weekend show there…he won both of his 2nd level classes and came 1st and 3rd in 1st Level Test 4 with qualifying scores of 66 an 67%…I’m very pleased as the reports are that both he and Jill looked like they were having a blast…after all that’s what its all about…right?

[Tiki]

Leah, don’t keep me in suspense!!! I want to see a picture of Here Be Madame!!! I looked on your web site and she’s not there. I really am excited about this pony. Midnight Rose has had 2 filly foals that were called back for the Premium ring, but just missed it at 7.9 and she had one incredible colt who did make Premium and had everyone drooling over him. Unfortunately he suffered a head/neck injury - probably in an unwitnessed pasture accident - with severe neurological complications and had to be put down. PICTURE PLEASE!!

[Rainbow_Farm_Unltd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by benno:
Leah, the ASPR does require 10 foals scoring 7 and up, but the performance requirement can be fulfilled by being evaluated under saddle by the inspector at the initial inspection. One of my ponies was 4, just started, did walk, trot and canter and passed. What is super about the ASPR, IMO, is the very detailed inspection they do of conformation and gaits and temperament. The sheet the owner receives is very, very helpful, with scores down to joints, feet, etc and I was very impressed by the thoroughness of the evaluation and comments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Ilona, I don’t know what you mean by a Pony Dressage division, but children can ride stallions in dressage and eventing, I can’t remember the requirements for showjumping, but it should be similar. Only adults can ride pony stallions in hunters in the US. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is an FEI Pony Division restricted to children. It isn’t huge in the U.S. yet, but it’s the only way ponies can compete in FEI classes - with children riding (usdf.org). When Kentchurch Chime (Welsh Section D) was competing, he competed at Grand Prix level with his adult rider, but could not complete in any FEI classes with an adult rider.

Stallions cannot be ridden by children in Pony Hunters and Pony Jumpers, which limits pony stallions to dressage, eventing and combined driving. For years I have done hunters with the big horse striding, so I could get some hunter experience on my green ponies. This is ok for Large ponies who can make the step, but only a schooling exercise for the smaller ones.

As for ASPR approval, the 5yo Section B stallion that was at our inspection (photos here: www.RainbowFarm.com/aspr.html), was inspected in hand for his preliminary license inspection, and then required to do a First Level dressage test (or jumping a prescribed course or driving a prescribed course) for his performance test all at the same inspection. Now all he needs is the 10 First Premium foals.

My 2 Welsh boys did their preliminary inspection as 2 year olds, so they only were shown in hand, at liberty and free jumped. They will both do their performance tests this fall as 5 year olds - one (12h) in dressage and one (11.1h) in driving. I, too, really appreciate the the detailed scoring system of the ASPR, plus the fact that they will accept the smaller stallions to breed to the larger mares to produce large ponies. There are many of us with proven, larger mares from our wb programs switching over to smaller dressage mounts, whether ponies or small horses.

[Dune]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rainbow Farm Unltd.:
When Kentchurch Chime (Welsh Section D) was competing, he competed at Grand Prix level with his adult rider, but could not complete in any FEI classes with an adult rider.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate to nitpick, but the omission of one little word seems to confuse folks in this particular topic. Since Kentchurch Chime (Welsh Section D) competed at GP, he was allowed to compete at FEI levels with an adult, however, he would NOT be able to compete at the Pony FEI level with an ADULT rider. To further confuse matters, being pony sized would prohibit you from competing at the “true” FEI levels at a CDI, but most folks don’t have to worry about that. This is where a lot of people get the misconception that ponies cannot compete at the FEI levels, which I’ve often heard, and it really needs to be clarified…especially if we want to sell some of these ponies to adults…which I think is a great niche for them.

[Kareen]

To ponybreath: Technically that pony would be referred to as a Welsh-partbred here in Germany. It can be registered a GRP and it is a GRP (because it is no purebred Welsh) but as an owner or rider you would probably want to put an emphasis on the 50% Welsh blood as you might want to attract buyers who are particularly fond of Welsh partbreds if you see the point.
If it is branded Westfalen and bred like you say it is it is and will always remain a German Riding Pony
Whether or not GRP’s are a breed depends on your standpoint. If you require a closed stoodbook then no they are not. If you require a breeding program following guidelines and a selecting system in place over a certain period of time well then yes it is of course a breed.
Most European breeds do not have a closed stoodbook. A closed stoodbook is only one means of breeding. I don’t see it as being obligate to define a breed. And basically the technical term doesn’t mean anything to me as long as one can see (by type or performance) whether or not a pony is a Riding Pony or not.
Pony breeding in Germany is younger than it is in the UK or the Netherlands. A lot of breeding stock is still imported from our neighbors to improve the breeding stock here and make for a bigger gene pool.

[Rainbow_Farm_Unltd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> …but the mare is now in foal to Pablo for an autumn 2005 foal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NICE choice, Sally Best wishes!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ise@ssl:
We’ve bred our ISR sportpony mare to Makuba two times and had two super boys (one premium and one just missed it had a 7.9) - one is owned by Barb Young and is 14.3 and the other is with us for sale and will be about 15H. They are just small warmbloods with terrific movement! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mine may finish at 15h as well. He’s only coming 4. Fabulous movement, like Ilona said!! www.RainbowFarm.com/mac.html

[ise]

Actually Sally - I try to stay away from mares that have big bodies and short legs and hope that crossing them with a smaller pony stallion will do the trick. You can just end up with a big body and even smaller legs. I want mares that are proportional and correct in conformation. I’ll take the risk of the “hony” as long as it’s correct and a good mover.

We do put a lot of weight on temperament and from what I saw - some of the top ponies in Europe are bit on the “hot” side sometimes so you have to be careful in selection. Here we have to consider the cross-over into the hunters if the pony doesn’t have enough suspension for Dressage or talent of the Pony Jumpers.

[hluing]

Yes, update your site!
Here is a link to my 2004 Makuba filly Magnolia
http://www.germanridingpony.com/Magnolia.htm
There are also pics of her dam on that page.
I too need a kick to get pics of my two new mares updated to the website.
Heather

[ponybreath]

So do the German registries have a closed studbook? I guess I am confused because I have seen several ponies advertised as German Riding Pony Welsh Section D. How can it be both? One of these ponies was branded Westphalian but was then turned down by AWS.

I think that the GRP’s are nice animals, but to me it’s a bit like reinventing the wheel. I don’t mean that in a bad way, but I feel like some of the Welsh B, C and D stallions are every bit as nice, they just don’t have the outrageous pricetags. Too each his own, that’s what makes it exciting.

[Rainbow_Farm_Unltd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hluing:
Here is a link to my 2004 Makuba filly Magnolia
http://www.germanridingpony.com/Magnolia.htm
There are also pics of her dam on that page.
I too need a kick to get pics of my two new mares updated to the website.
Heather <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, and a swift update kick for you too (This is kind of fun) My Makuba coming 4yo gelding is here: www.RainbowFarm.com/mac.html He is 14.3h with lovely big movement. He actually looks much bigger, so I keep sticking him just to be sure. He’ll probably finish at 15h.

[pwynnnorman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Betty is still in Florida and doing well and I am supposed to see her tomorrow night.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, that’s good. Am I right that she was one of the first to import BRP stallions?

[hluing]

Nancy-I need to talk to you about your boys for this year…I wanted to let you know, Weser-ems is inspecting and registering mares and foals in this country. They have the same judge (or one of them) who comes over here with GOV inspects the ponies. They will have the same papers, etc…and be branded Weser-ems.
That is the route I took with my 2004 Makuba filly and her dam. She was the only foal there and was awarded premium. I am guessing Bennos’ foals will be eligible for this, and I will be contacting the registry.

Ise-I sent you a PT as well. For all those oversized Makuba babies, how tall were the mares?
Thanks everyone for your input.
Heather

[hluing]

Wow,
I had no idea there was such a pony breeder in my little town of Citra. I am a member of the Sunshine Sporthorse assoc. Is there a specific pony group around here? I’d love to meet the other local pony breeders.
I’ve been thrilled to see the interest in this thread.
Heather