German Riding Ponies-Stallions, market, etc.

[Kareen]

While I of course agree a good horse is a good horse no matter what size there is a clear marketing gap for ‘overgrown’ ponies. I don’t say they won’t sell, there always is a buyer for a good horse. But they won’t sell anywhere near what a 16.2 hander of comparable quality sells for.
This creates a problem: The breeders are forced to stick to the smallies as the resellers don’t want them (knowing the amount and $$ that go into raising and training are comparable to a 16.2 h horse that will fetch a significantly higher price once it is ‘made’). This deflates the prices for the small ones even more as the breeder doesn’t want to pour all the $$ into them either but wants them gone asap.
The demand is definitely there for small (as in 14.3-15.3 h trained horses) but nobody wants to pay a fair price.

Re. Welsh B growing over 14.2 can not happen really because of the Welsh B size-frame The motherbook in England has recently put an ban on crossing Welsh B to Cobs that affects all Welsh breeders in the mothercountry as well as the rest of Europe. I think it’s good that way because the desired characteristics of the Welsh B are so pronounced because they have been bred so discriminantly for generations and generations.

Another problem I see is in GRP breeders being so obsessed with Endmaß that they miss the existing market for smaller RP. Every so often people ask me wanting a smaller pony with the desired GRP criteria (as in sportivity and conformational correctness) but they can’t find them at least not trained to the level they need them to be at (at least confirmed wtc and reliably jumping small jumps with a kid on).

[elly]

Lateran, an extremely successful black German dressage pony stallion was recently imported to California - there is an ad in the stallion issue of The Chronicle -

[Oakstable]

I have not been around the hunter world but I have the impression that the height standards are strict for the various divisions. But, Ilona, you are right about breeding for dressage.

I have a “frig” photo of me riding my first mare, 15H, and she was a very good size for me. Then I added another mare, 15.2H, also good. And my first horse was 15.3H. All were suitable, but I could have ridden 14.3 too and looked just fine.

It’s funny but it really comes down to what you are accustomed to. I had a young woman break out my 15.1 imported Trakehner mare and her fiance was talking about what a BIG mare she is. The rider was very petite but her boyfriend was probably 5’11" and he was talking about how he’d feel good on a mare that size.

Look at Lucy Mae on my web site, mare section.

www.oakhollowstable.com

Sally

[Del]

pwynn: yes, the Aust Riding Pony has a little less bone than the GRP. Having said that, it is pretty well bred the same as the British RP.
If you look carefully at “some” of the GRP pedigree’s you’ll see that there is RP there - its a necessary ingredient!.
And, yes we don’t have Warmblood as an accepted breed for the RP stud book, but you can most certainly have that with the Sport Pony!
I would not use the term powerful for movement…but maybe “purpose built” to be ridden and with ground covering movement!

Barb, I agree. Temperament is VERY important.
I have children myself, and children also ride our ponies. I’d like to think that is why we breed ponies…but also I have to handle, train & break them, and I want “nice” people around!
I’m with Sharon on " I dont have anything to prove anymore" yep!
Barb: you’re doing great with your program there. The good mares are a very important part in it, and possible THE most !
What hasn’t been covered is when you are watching the ponies doing a test or being shown under saddle - you want trainable, temperament, conformation but also that bit of “wow or I’m special” factor in order to perform the movements with a little ‘zest’- presence.
This is also where the RP can be a very useful ingredient in a total package.

[maple_brook]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hluing:
Dune-Excellent point

We have heard about foals from Makuba and Lesley’s New Forrests. Has anyone had foals by other GRP’s or are you expecting any this spring?
Does anyone have pics to share?
Heather <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I guess my mare and her coming foal would qualify. My pony mare is a welsh/arab cross who is inspected/approved with RPSI pony division. She is in foal this year to Donarweiss (a smaller hanoverian stallion). His test foal last year was amazing so I’m pretty excited about this one. I will be breeding this mare back to a sport pony stallion this spring (I still debating on which one exactly).

[ise]

Forgot to mention - The ISR reponded to me that they are working on clarifying the performance requirements as we have no Dressage POny divisions here.

[hluing]

Linda,
Also, what stallions are you looking at? Curious since I am also trying to decide.

[Wowelsh]

Thank you Tiki…

I do understand the issue of small ponies having difficulty fulfilling the performance requirements. However,that doesn’t quite answer my question, as Section D is anything above 13.2 h, as are many Connemara’s, etc. There are full sibling C’s and D’s whose only difference is 1/8" , in height. Same thing goes for A’s and B’s.

My D stallion is 14.1 3/4 " h. We are just getting some regular under-saddle time and he is showing tons of potential. He will be proving himself in the dressage ring.

You must be very excited about your Ronan foal…we just purchased a purebred Section C filly, by Ronan (Here-Be Madame X). She scored 8.0 at her ASPR inspection, becoming Midwest Regional Ch. My Ollie x Anglo-Arab filly (Half Sect. A) also scored 8.0 and was East-Southeast Ch, so we are now home to two regional champions!

We are trying to move toward a purebred focus, while retaining top quality sport ponies. In my experience, many purebred Welsh are top quality sport-type movers and the consistant breeding behind them, makes them pre-potent to pass it on.

[Tiki]

Remember that the FEI 5 & 6yo Young Horse Tests were new and not too popular a few years ago. Now you can find classes all over the place. They don’t always have a large class, but they’re getting more and more popular. Dressage at Devon, with the North American Sport Horse Futurity with about $20,000 in prize money did a lot to help that. There was a pretty big class at Allentown, PA for the qualifier for the National Championship at Lexington, KY. I think the Midwest in Illinois (I think) had a pretty good class too, as did the West Coast final. If you build it, they will come. I’m breeding to ponies to get large ponies, small honies. I can’t wait to start riding them myself - if they don’t sell prior to going under saddle. In fact, I’m not sure I really want to sell all the foals as I am sooooooooo much looking forward to riding and training at least one of them!

Actually, I’m breeding for the older teen, smaller woman. I’m not the least bit interested in breeding kid’s ponies or hunter ponies. Some of these ‘little’ guys have the MOST incredible movement and jump, yet they’re not too far off the ground to get on (or fall off! tee hee hee)

[Rainbow_Farm_Unltd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>ou know, the “adults to ride” approach and market is a great one, but do you folks think that message is getting out there that much? For example, on the AWSPR (or one of those registries) site, the standards for the sportpony still emphasize “kids to ride”. Maybe that wording (and hence that apparent emphasis) needs to be changed/updated? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. We are breeding ponies for kids ultimately. If I have fun with mine while getting them broke and solid, well so much the better, or if a smaller woman buys one, great! But even FEI ponies are ridden by children, so I think we need to keep that focus as the ultimate goal. Someone said something about temperament being the most important thing, and they are right in my book! I want my ponies to follow me around while I irrigate and steal the irrigating tools and plastic cloth I use. That’s the temperament that I want. And I want them to look very ho hum the first time a saddle goes on - like “so what?, what’s next?”. Of course I also want upper level talent in them too And I do believe that you can have it all pretty easily. And yes, Wynn, as Del points out to me, I am reinventing the wheel to some degree, because I’m not in a position to be importing. But my mares were successful in my wb program, my new pony mares’ foals scored very well at their inspections, so while I’m not breeding German Riding Ponies, I am aiming for that type. Obviously some of the welsh/tb crosses are also going to be great for the pony hunters.

[ise]

Got it - I’ll try to respond later today. Saw some nice ponies!!

[hluing]

I do agree that GRP’s are different-not to say there are not individuals in other pony breeds that are equally athletic. However, these ponies have been breed for many years for sport-dressage, jumping, driving. They are not bred to be hunter ponies…although I think a few might be doing that in the US. I also agree that specific pony divisions (in dressage/jumpers)are still very new in the US. However, I do not think they will be a collectors item because there is an appeal to smaller, amy women for a small dressage mount…and these ponies are fancy-like little warmbloods. The reson I decided to get involved with the breed was they looked like fun to ride…I am keeping my own premium filly for myself for both riding and breeding. I have had several people interested in her, so I think there is a market for quality individuals. Time will tell, I am pleased to see so much interest on this board.

[maple_brook]

iss…I sent you a PM about your German trip.

[hluing]

Ohhh, and of course, tell us about your planned breedings for this year.

[Tiki]

Wowee! Look at the size of some of those jumps that KIDS are jumping!!!

[ise]

You know Oakstable I don’t think there is any size that falls through the cracks anymore because many of these ponies are headed to Dressage or Jumpers as well as Hunters. And we do see more and more women who WANT the warmblood movement and mind and just have tired of the MONSTER sized WB’s.

The 3 yo Makuba we have here is one of the nicest horses I’ve ever bred. He has it all and is just a smaller package. We are asking $10K for him just to give you an idea. We will probably start his ground work this spring and keep the price there.

I forgot to mention I looked at ponies when I was in Germany in early December and depending on what happens with the Euro might invest in some that I saw. If anyone wants to PM me on this I’ll discuss it in more detail.

[winter]

When I worked on a stud in Ireland I was amazed at the diference in attitude there compared to here with regards to small horses and ponies. I can remember saying that my horse was only 15.2 and getting the reply " a good 15.2 is worth it’s weight in gold". There was a huge market for talented smaller horses there.
Watching the pony jumpers at Dublin was truly outstanding. The 14.2’s were jumping what looked like 4’6" and the small 12-13h type ponies were in the international ring jumping what looked to be around 3’6". It was amazing watching a pony cantering up to a fence where all you could see from the other side were his ears.
Personally as an adult I love riding and jumping ponies, it’s too bad there aren’t divisions for ponies with adult riders.

[maple_brook]

Tiki…I think you are absolutely right. As I said earlier, my region now holds Sport Pony in hand and Sport Pony under saddle classes at each of our USDF breed shows. There were a handful of people that participated in these classes last year…so it is starting to come on line.

[hluing]

Here is an interesting tidbit found on another site.
http://www.gestuetgh.de/Kir%20Royal%20neu.htm
This GRP stallion, Kir Royal, should be available by frozen this year. Interestingly, if you look at his bloodlines, it appears he is an WelshB/Arabian cross.

[Oakstable]

I would think that the pony market would put strong emphasis on temperament and rideability. And everything else would fall far behind in priority. Those of us who are breeding horses get very caught up in bloodlines far beyond what the typical buyer cares about.

I have never spent a lot of time looking at this market because of the A, B, C, D and what if something really nice is 1/4" taller than its division. However, if you breed a small horse for the dressage market specifically, then nothing should be falling through the cracks. (Right, Illona?)

The only pony I have owned was a Shetland that I bought for company for my horse.

The sporthorse model should be achievable by with smaller TB mares, Polish-type Arabians, and smaller Trakehner mares. It seems to me that the critical consideration is the leg to body ratio. Older-style WB mares can be rather short legged so you’d want to choose a pony stallion that is long legged but in a pony-proportioned package.

I’d love to see photos in a web site that show the various pony “looks.”

Sally