Why are such mares not popular in America? Are they considered too slow, too much of a stayer type? Are they not suited for dirt racing?
Why is it that American thoroughbreds are no longer considered suited for sport? Buckpasser was/is considered useful for sport is it not?
And there have been speedy TB lines that were useful for sport, like the Court Martial line, haven’t there?
I am not American so that is why I am wondering.
It’s not that that mare wasn’t valued in the USA, just that the Japanese valued her more. It’s not like they picked her up for a bag of peanuts.
But yes, most day to day US racing is on the dirt. About 90-95% of all races carded are between 4.5f and 8.5f.
But not every horse bred in the US is bred to race in the US, some are bred with an eye to the export market.
I asked because Linny wrote: I;d love to see more mares like her in the US.
[QUOTE=Linny;7954863]
Exactly Zipperfoot. If there were more racehorses bred like that there would be more available for sport. That mare was never destined to produce an Oldenburg, but her slow offspring might have made nice jumpers.[/QUOTE]
I’d like to see horses like her producing Thoroughbred sport horses!
[QUOTE=Elles;7955044]
Why are such mares not popular in America? Are they considered too slow, too much of a stayer type? Are they not suited for dirt racing?[/QUOTE]
This mare was definitely more of a distance horse–1 to 1-16 miles. I’m definitely not an expert on racing, but shorter distance races seem to be much more popular in this country, so the horses are bred for those. “Sprinter” bloodlines are selected over “stayer” bloodlines, which in a lot of cases are the ones that TB sport horse breeders seek.
[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7955367]
I’d like to see horses like her producing Thoroughbred sport horses![/QUOTE]
I bet if you offer her purchasers more than $230K, they’d part with her so you can do just that. 
:lol: :winkgrin:
You mean they wouldn’t just GIVE her to me 'cause I’m such a nice person and would take reeely good care of the horsey???
The mare in question definitely has a grass/route pedigree. Her foals would likely not be as commercially viable here as foals from mares with dirt pedigree. A far higher percentage of US racing is on dirt and therefore it is what sells. Our classics are on dirt, our best horses are typically pointed to dirt races.
Horses with pedigrees filled with parenthetical letters (GB, FR, GER, JPN) typically are grass bred and less commercial and more “unknown.” It takes a bit more research to determine what stallion to breed such a mare to and they potential buyers look at the pedigree on the page and go numb because they have never heard of the horses on there, even the ones in black type. When it comes to pedigree, familiarity breeds comfort.
I would like to see more mares like this but in most cases their influence might not be felt for a generation or two and likely come from their daughters, adding some bone and stamina.
Did these horses have stamina bloodlines?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10200082
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10203608
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10213274
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10196959
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=gem+twist&x=0&y=0
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10196717
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10486168
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10197224
[QUOTE=Elles;7955599]
Did these horses have stamina bloodlines?
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10200082
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10203608
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10213274
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10196959
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=gem+twist&x=0&y=0
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10196717
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10486168
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10197224[/QUOTE]
US Racing was very different then. Short races were longer: horses ran more often and closer in time: European horses were very prevalent in breeding; and the US still had the old heat racing lines closer in the pedigrees. Grass sprint horses like Nasrullah were different from the current type and were imported in number. That kind of sprint muscle was very good for jumping. Back then, races were rarely shorter than a mile, except for very young horses.
Also back in the 50s and 60s there were actually Americans who bred for steeplechasing. Now most chasers are failed flat racers. There is very little money in US chasing.
Guitar Pete has quite a lot of American lines in his pedigree. And still he is a long distance horse.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7955823]
US Racing was very different then. Short races were longer: horses ran more often and closer in time: European horses were very prevalent in breeding; and the US still had the old heat racing lines closer in the pedigrees. Grass sprint horses like Nasrullah were different from the current type and were imported in number. That kind of sprint muscle was very good for jumping. Back then, races were rarely shorter than a mile, except for very young horses.[/QUOTE]
That is an oft repeated statement on these boards, but is not true, as a look at any old copy of the DRF will attest to.
The meat and potatoes of US racing has always been 5f-8.5f races, just as it is today. There were occasional long distance races, but they were for elite horses, and they were rare outliers even back then.
Here are 15 randomly picked race cards from DRF archives…
Churchill Downs, 12th May 1950 … 8 races on the card, 5f, 6f. 5f, 6f 6f, 7f, 6f, 8.5f
Pimlico, 5th May 1956 … 8 races on the card, 5.5f, 5f, 5f, 8.5f, 6f, 8f, 5.5f, 8f
Aqueduct, June 10th 1943 … 8 race card, 7f, 7f, 12f (hurdle!!.. a 12f hurdle, dangerously short distance for a hurdle race), 5f, 6f, 8.5f, 8.5f, 9f
Monmouth Park. June 25th 1948… 6f, 6f, 6f, 5f, 6f, 5f, 8.5f, 8.5f
Lexington, April 23rd 1930 … 8 race card, 6f, 4.5f, 8f, 4.5f, 8.5f, 6f, 6f, 8.5f
Laurel, Oct 13th 1938… 8 race card, 8.5f, 6f, 8f, 20f(hurdle), 8.5f, 8.5f, 10f, 8.5f
Sportmans’s Park, Oct 13th 1938 … 9 race card, 7f, 7f, 7f, 7f, 7f, 8f, 8.5f, 8.5f, 7f
Fairgrounds, Dec 22nd 1938 … 8 race card, 6f, 6f, 5.5f, 5.5f, 9f, 8f, 8.5f, 8f
Hollywood Park, May 12th 1959 … 8 race card, 5f, 6f, 6f, 6f, 8f, 6f, 6f, 8f
Golden Gate Fields, May 7th 1958 … 8 race card, 6f, 6f, 5f, 6f, 6f, 6f, 8.5f, 8.5f
Woodbine, June 26th 1957 … 8 race card, 6.5f, 6f, 6f, 6.5f. 5f, 6f, 8.5f, 8.5f
Beulah Park, May 14th 1957 … 8 race card, 6f, 6f, 6f, 5f, 6f, 6f, 6f, 8f
Suffolk Downs, June 26th 1952 … 9 race card, 6f, 8f, 5.5f, 8.5f, 6f, 6f, 8.5f, 8.5f
Latonia, Oct 19th 1923 … 7 race card, 6f, 8.5f, 6f, 8f, 8f, 8f, 6f
Arlington Park, Jun 24th 1928 … 7 race card, 5f, 6f, 5f, 6f, 8.5f, 6f, 8f
^^^ It is a mistake to assume that US racing “used to include a lot of routes” unless you go back to the pre-Civil War era of heat racing.
In fact, I would argue that from the era of proliferation of turf courses in the US, to the rise in the era of the turf sprint, that the average race distance was longer than it had been in generations.
One could argue that Royal Ascot is among the elite race meets of the world. They run almost exclusively group or listed stakes. The only division represented twice during the Tuesday to Saturday meeting as sprinters. They run 2 Group I sprints, The King’s Stand and the Diamond Jubilee.
[QUOTE=Linny;7956937]
One could argue that Royal Ascot is among the elite race meets of the world. They run almost exclusively group or listed stakes. The only division represented twice during the Tuesday to Saturday meeting as sprinters. They run 2 Group I sprints, The King’s Stand and the Diamond Jubilee.[/QUOTE]
In fairness they get a lot of the same runners in both races. A horse can run in two sprints four days apart. Little bit harder to run back in that short time frame at longer distances, at least at the elite level.
Don’t forget, the centerpiece race of the Royal Meeting is still the Gold Cup G1, at 2-1/2 miles.
Three examples of the type of TB blood that can be found in a QH racing stallion:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bigtime+favorite
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/eyesa+special
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ocean+runaway
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/show-jumpers.html
Just random examples, these two do not look horrible:
http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-879087
http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-894989
Okay, they do not look like this TB but it could be worse:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=313716
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/en/pferd_html?pschl=OcosFrontal
And if you talk about some of the best national hunt horses:
Desert Orchid
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10415022
Monksfield
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=monksfield
See you then
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=see+you+then
Night nurse
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10125578
Dawn Run
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10124160
Kauto Star
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=npoGAc&d=kauto+star
Red Rum
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10176503
Sea Pigeon
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=sea+pigeon
Golden Miller
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10303086
Arkle
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?d=arkle&x=33&y=12
But I must agree that Dark Ronald is wonderful to have in a pedigree.
http://www.idshs.com.au/perl/search.pl?op=reverse&index=dark_ronald&gens=5
Horses that won the 2 miles and 4 furlongs long Ascot Gold Cup
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading_Light
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite_of_Passage_(horse)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Rebel
Eventer with lots of American TB’s in his pedigree:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10495642
In this German topic a German who trains dressage riders all over the world and has many years of experience in riding and breeding warmbloods, thoroughbreds and warmblood/TB crosses, says that by using the right TB warmblood horses often can still be improved on: http://www.horse-gate-forum.com/showthread.php?72843-Was-ist-Zuchtfortschritt-beim-Einsatz-von-Vollblut
He bred a TB Ridgmont that unfortunately died at a rather young age. This horse got better marks for his gaits then a number of warmbloods by Lauries Crusador. This horse did have a lot of German TB in his pedigree:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ridgmont
A German race with a distance of 1,200 metres (6 furlongs?) and it’s winners over time:
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/sieger?rennkz=DBGoP&backlink=0
For example
1978: Cagliostro in quite a fast time of 1:11,8 and the going was heavy that year.
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/pferd_html?pschl=CagliostroDschingis
http://www.pedigreequery.com/cagliostro
Akbar came second in 1974
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/pferd_html?pfdaten=pedigree&pschl=AkbarDschingis
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/pferd_html?pschl=AkbarDschingis
Kronenkranich won in 1976 in 1:12,3 on soft ground
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/pferd_html?pfdaten=pedigree&pschl=KronenkranichStupendous
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/pferd_html?pschl=KronenkranichStupendous
1 mile:
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/sieger?rennkz=D2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehl-Mülhens-Rennen
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/pferd_html?pschl=MandelbaumK�nigsstuh
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/pferd_html?pfdaten=pedigree&pschl=MandelbaumK�nigsstuh
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/pferd_html?pschl=PlatiniSurumu
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/pferd_html?pfdaten=pedigree&pschl=PlatiniSurumu
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/pferd_html?pschl=LavircoK�nigsstuh
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/pferd_html?pfdaten=pedigree&pschl=LavircoK�nigsstuh
Most races in Germany are longer than one mile, quite a lot over one and a half miles. http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/rennen_deutsch_html
Steher means stayer, meiler means miler.
Breeding plans of a number of German breeders:
http://www.turf-times.de/s/1/deckpl-ne
German trained thoroughbreds who earned more than € 1.000.000 prize money:
http://www.galopp-sieger.de/galoppsieger/en/home_html
National hunt sale in Ireland in 2014:
http://tattersalls.ie/sales/august2014/ANH%2014.pdf
Sales results: http://db.tattersalls.ie/4DCGI/Sale/ANH%2014
A full brother to this horse was sold at the highest price:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/rogue+trader2
I must say it is rather shocking to read how few longer distance races there are in the USA! http://www.paulickreport.com/features/keeneland-presents-american-graded-stakes-standings/keeneland-presents-american-graded-stakes-standings-distance-limitations-2/
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18812&highlight=
http://www.grand-national.me.uk/fences/
The Chair – one of the most notoriously difficult jumps on the whole course. It is 5ft 2in high and preceded by the third open 6ft ditch. Because of it’s narrow approach it looks exceptionally daunting with an even more confusing higher ground level on then landing side than on the take-off side.
This means that this fence is 1.57 metres high.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/csgcvtftin2meterscalc.html
Old picture of Beechers Brook:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/03/31/article-2302059-1906A632000005DC-450_964x660.jpg
http://cdn.spectator.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/166072805-600x397.jpg
One winner of a Grand National, 18.8% Northern Dancer, 9.7% Nearco, 7.9% Hyperion, 7.8% Native Dancer and quite a number of horses in the pedigree that were bred in the USA.
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10890684&blood=10"a=
With horses things are never black or white.
[QUOTE=Linny;7954692]
Sad to see her go but in that price range, she wasn’t going to be part of any sport horse program. As a racing person, I;d love to see more mares like her in the US.
PS, GumTree, I’m going to be in your area this weekend, I’d love to stop in any say hello in person![/QUOTE]
Great, stop on in. Thinking about going to the stallion showing at North View PA on Saturday afternoon. It’s about 20+ minutes from here. Welcome to come along. My previous computer gave out not long ago and of course I did not have certain stuff backed up, like my email address book. So I don’t have yours. Sent me an email, and or call.
Larry
PS too lazy to do a PM
Not german tb bloodlines but old bloodline with staminia --the mare below is on the free broodmare lease thread-- she has an amazing pedigree you do not find anymore.
Her pedigree is here http://www.pedigreequery.com/iolar+na+mara
(She has worden and percipitation on the page and he great grass mare drumtop in the second generation)
