He’s going to a nice one. Congrats!
@dynamite0319, the colt we bred just turned three and he should race this year. His new owner named him Zap Zap Zap. He was just an all around nice colt to deal with and to have around. Easy all the time we had him.
@LaurieB your colt is the same age as this guy! This guy ran twice last fall and was last and second to last. I talked to the trainers yesterday and they said he has a knee that would get sore, but that he is really sweet and good looking. He flexed sound, so I’m not too worried about the knee. He likely is still growing and needs time. I’m going to let him take it easy for a while to just grow up.
his canter is lovely… he will have no problem covering ground as a foxhunter. good eye, good job, and good luck! keep us updated, kay?
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Thanks so much @beowulf! I will definitely follow-up. I’m really quite excited about this horse! I appreciate the feedback from everyone, too. I’ve had many babies and a couple QHs off the track, but never a TB off the track so this will be a new experience for me.
he’s really nice! Still a bit butt high but lots of time to still grow and fill into himself! He will do great at his job for sure! Nice find, he’s quite lovely.
Wouldn’t worry to much about the knee. Perhaps put him on cosequin long term or something of the like
best of luck with him
OP, I tend not to comment on these sorts of posts asking about a TB’s pedigree and suitability as a sport horse. But Ghost Zapper caught my attention. Because he is in the grand scheme of things a relatively young stallion having gone to stud in 2006. IMO only a few of his first of crop horses would be in the hands of off track riders. Even fewer in the hands of sport horse people. IMO certainly not enough in numbers of of any one individual to really give an opinion of their over all suitability as sport horses.
To each their own on this.
What did get my attention is the fact this horse is now only a 3 year old. A 3 year old by a well respected TB stallion and a fairly expensive stallion. I am in the “business” of TBs. I am paid as a consultant/adviser. Part of my job is based on “market” research. So I decided to check things out.
Ghost Zapper went to stud with high expectations and an high stud fee, $200,000 in 2006. His first couple of crops were decent but not up to expectations based on stud fee. That, combined with the economic crash starting in 2008 (first foals were yearlings). Market forces drove his fee down. Water seeks its own level and he now stands for advertised $75,000.
Though when you guy was bred the stud fee may have been $100,000. Don’t feel like fact checking.
Your guy sold as a yearling for $150,000. Sounds like a big number but factoring in production cost the breeder may have made a few dollars.
He was bought with the intention to be resold as a 2 year old in training last spring. He went though the “ring” twice. The first time at the Ocala Breeders Sales (OBS) April 2 year old in training sale.
This is a link to his sales pedigree page;
http://www.obssales.com/juncatalog/2016/696.PDF
All sale 2 year olds are “shown under tack”. The have a timed “work out”. People are buying “ready made” race horses. The can be paying a “premium” to see a “card” that can’t be seen when buying a yearling.
Breeze day for the seller is where the “rubber meets the road”. How fast the horse works at the given distance is one thing. Slow is slow, but an acceptable time is good enough for most knowledgeable buyers. More importantly is “HOW” the horse preformed. “Professionally” and got the job done with easy and “racehorse style”
This is the link to the video of his “work”. Note that he did NOT change leads.
Edit: for clarity I should have re-read my comments before posting, I should have said he seems reluctant to change leads. Thank you digihorse for asking, questioning my comment.
And the jock "asked"him several times. I have a trained eye for this, that’s what I am paid for. I also break/start youngsters, on their back and from the ground.
Not changing leads can be a “green thing”. But it can be the kiss of death for someone trying to sell an expensive yearling 2 year old pinhook. Getting these horses ready for a sale if VERY expensive. ANY hole will not be over looked by the seller nor buyers. Holes bring a big discount or no sale.
Lead changes are expected and not usually hard for just about any young horse to figure out. These types of horses are in the hands of the best of the best. I know the consignor. Top training facility with top help.
All 2 year olds are pre-vetted as part of the conditions of sale. The horse is gone over head to tail. 34 views/x-rays. Any serious buyer paying serious money will do their own vetting after the Breeze up. I doubt very much a horse of this caliber in the hands of an expert not changing leads is due to being “green”. IMO he had something physical going on. Which is pretty much always the case with 2 year olds or older when it comes to common/simple lead changes.
Given the fact he was RNA, (reserve not attained) bought back for $47,000. No where close to his yearling purchase price plus another $20,000+ in prep expenses. Leads me to believe my “cyber” extrapolations are correct.
http://www.obssales.com/juncatalog/2016/696.mp4
But even more so if the fact he was “spun”, went through the ring a second time a month later with the same sales company. The June sale is a much lower profile sale and pretty much last chance to sell a 2 year old in training. He sold for $5,500 to an “unknown” most buyers at this sale are. I bet they took a chance on his vetting for that kind of money for a horse with his pedigree.
Figuring, hopping there maybe upswing in a much smaller market like Remmington. Maybe they just didn’t know better. His race charts suggest IMO he has physical issues.
This is the link to his Breeze show in June. Not much different than the one in May. Load the 2 back to back and click back and forth. The jock is really trying to get him to change leads.
http://www.obssales.com/aprcatalog/2016/45.mp4
So, not to rain on your parade anymore than I may of already. I would not dismiss the “knee issue”. I don’t care what the vet said about flexing. Flexing is WAY over rated as is flex and jogging IMO. I have been doing this a long time. Both with race and sport horses. I have found very few vets have the level of expertise they think they have. VERY FEW. No disrespect intended.
There may or may not be something going on. But a lot of work and expense will be needed to get this horse where you want to take him. A lot of small issues can be dealt with, surgically or with time and rehab. But if left unaddressed they can get worse and or become “un-fixable”.
Better to pay the price of checking things out now then to be plagued with chronic issues later. Or find out that the horse may never be able to stand up, stay sound for what will be asked, expected. But this all depends on what will be “asked”. What the horse will be used for.
My posts tend to be long winded. I try to comment on the bigger picture of all things horse. Hopefully the time it took to put this together will be educational for some, many.
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Do they very often just not want to run? This horse is SO calm and docile! I can’t imagine him actually running. I don’t discount the knee issue, but I trust my vet and I don’t intend to use this horse very hard. He will have some time to just be a horse for a bit. If he does have an injury some time off should do him good. Plus I have 2 other horses to ride and show right now!
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Gumtree said exactly what I was thinking. Just xray the knee so you know what is in there. Even if you plan to give him time off you should know if he needs stall rest to heal properly.
Some horses “don’t want to run” but that is generally due to injury or illness or both and the ongoing nature of that injury or illness or the association to that. It is rare they just flat out say “no thanks” for no reason. Enjoy your boy but don’t stick your head in the sand. And treat for ulcers.
[QUOTE=dynamite0319;8999465]
Do they very often just not want to run? This horse is SO calm and docile! I can’t imagine him actually running. I don’t discount the knee issue, but I trust my vet and I don’t intend to use this horse very hard. He will have some time to just be a horse for a bit. If he does have an injury some time off should do him good. Plus I have 2 other horses to ride and show right now![/QUOTE]
“Do they very often just not want to run?”
All TBs will run, some very fast and some very slow. Slow maybe due to lack of talent others for reasons that Laurierace gave.
But the racing world, the racetracks know this. Which is the whole reason why there are numerous races that are offered with “conditions”. These conditions level the playing field so that just about all horses in a “conditions” race. “Theoretically” have a chance of winning.
Other wise a very small percentage of horses would be winning the majority of the races. The vast majority of races in this country are claiming races. All of the horses in the race are “for sale” for a specified price. Every horse can be claimed for that price by any licensed “owner” by and large. The “claim” has to be made before the race is run. Cash on the barrel, pre-race vetting, no return by and large after the race and the horse in the barn of their new owner.
Most good trainers know or should know, have a pretty good idea of their horses ability before its first start and certainly there after to a point. 99.9% of horses make their first start against horses that have not won a race, their “maiden race” no matter how many times they may have tried.
Maiden Claiming races can be as low as $5,000 claiming price to as much as $75,000++. The trainer advises the owner what level, claiming price the horse should start at. If they win easily and or run really well and don’t get claimed. They most likely will make their next start in a race with a higher claiming price, go up the ladder. They can and do get much better and end up in high class allowance races and or stakes races.
Most do not. Most go down the ladder, lower claiming price. Until the are running against horses they can be competitive against. Trainers/owners that run claiming horses are basically playing a game of “poker”. The may drop a horse to “steal” the pot and hope it doesn’t get claimed for less money then it is really worth. Just about every horse in every claiming is being looked by a lot of other “poker” players. Is the horse worth paying for the “call”, paying the claiming price. Thinking they can “improve” the horse and make some money before it gets claimed again.
Dropping in “class”, claiming price is also a good way of moving/selling a horse with “issues”.
There is a bit more to the “claiming game” than can be explained briefly.
But one thing is pretty much fact. Considering the time and money connections have into a horse. They rarely “give up” on a horse that hasn’t been dropped in “class” a few times and or pretty much to the bottom, $5,000. Depends on the owner and the trainer. More the former than the latter. Unless the horse has fairly obvious issues. Issues that good poker player will figure out and not go after the horse for any claiming price.
So anyone with any kind of money management will just retire the horse. Cut their losses and expenses ASAP.
Your horse ran twice, both $20,000 maiden claiming. His charts say, outrun and or tired. Outrun twice usually means the horse needs to be dropped in class/claiming price. Tired may mean lack of conditioning, poor training. A bit more training time will tell. The person who writes the charts is just guessing with their comments. They are following a lot of horses in all fairness.
Now, to be CLEAR no how many times a horse ran, or didn’t run and regardless of comments on their race chart should NOT be interpreted that the horse has/had soundness issues.
I was VERY hesitant to comment with my interpretation. Because of my experience selling, tying to sell re-schooled ex-racers and or ones that never raced. Homebreds too. Buyers, even those that think they have enough experience because of some involvement in the racehorse side of things. Others that gleam the internet for their “education”. Reading threads like this one.
Most “advise” comments I have read on the internet, the COTH forum included. IMO is of limited value in the real world of TBs. Racing and Sport.
That’s not saying that there is not very good and useful information to be found and learned from forums and other sites, especially the COTH forum. IMO the most respected and widely read on the internet. Rightfully so. A lot of knowledgeable people around here.
But when it comes to “all things horse” a lot, most things need more in depth details, explanations than are generally given. Miss-information, half truths, good or bad, totally subjective opinions with no bases for the reader to ascertain the “quality” of the given opinion. NO background information. The vast majority are “anonymous opinions” and or expertise. Fair enough that’s they way “forums” have always worked. Every comment should be taken with a grain of salt. Mine included.
The BIGGEST problem is the disservice that “myths and half truths” cause. They make what is already a complicated business/hobby even more complicated. For those of us in the business it can and does complicate things double fold. So many things are blown way out of proportion and or ALL the factors are not taken into consideration. Be it buying, selling , training, breeding raising, vetting, shoeing. You name it.
It is and or has gotten to the point for a lot of us in the business where its just not that enjoyable most of the time. Let alone reasonably profitable. The ends justify the means.
Sorry to digress but I do have my reasons. Reasons that can’t be explained in a paragraph or 2.
Back on topic I can say with high confidence the horse has “issues”. Not based on his race record alone. Much more so based on his purchase price as a yearling to be resold as a 2 year old in training and the sales results, video included.
The owner took a bath selling for $5,500. Loosing around $200,00 in less than 9 months. I know the consignor/sales agent who broke, trained and prepped the horse for the sole purpose of selling at the 2 year old in training sale. The sole purpose of the exerciser was to make money selling to person who will race the horse. The consignor is one of the best in the business. Plenty of horse go though the ring unsold, RNA. The connections valued the horse more than the buying market. The vast majority of these get sold before leaving the sales grounds. If it was just a matter of “over valuation” and or minor vet issues. They still get sold for reasonable money in relation to their displayed ability, pedigree, purchase price and the consignors reputation.
The horse “worked” in a respectable time for the distance. If he had changed leads and had no other large issues he would have gotten sold privately. Even though he didn’t change leads he looked good enough to take a close look at his vet report. To see if there were any tell-tails.
The fact that he didn’t get sold privately and was spun back in the lesser sale a month later screams buyer beware with a horse like this and its connections. Lots of horses go through the ring more than once. For a number of reasons. The majority of which are not due to soundness. Most get sold, sometimes for less money, sometimes for more.
When a horse like this is “let go” in the ring for $5,500 it has issues. The buyer may or may not have done their homework. I would bet they may have been “shooting from the hip” in the “back ring” with a very low budget. Nice looking horse catches their eye before going into the ring, respectable breeze time the sheet selling for little to no money. Even though there wasn’t time to look at the sellers vet report. Take a chance there isn’t a big issue.
I’ve done the same. Working strictly off of paper and looks. brief looks. But I know pedigrees and very good at valuing horse paper value. I have looked at a LOT of horses over the years so it doesn’t take me long “size them up”.
On “paper” pedigree and breeze time the selling horse should be worth a LOT more than $5,500. Especially knowing the connections. I have shot from the hip. Win some loose some. But this one screamed “moving target”.
OP, you have a simple plan and that’s all that matters. But if his knee should present problems with light use it may serve the horse and you well to take a closer looks at things.
Hope this “tutorial” based on a lot of years of experience and mistakes is of use/educational for some. I have written a lot, lol, but it is far from complete. But it should give some insight into how those of us in the business go about things. A lot of the same “things”, principles apply to other disciplines. In the end a widget is a widget
Sorry for any/lot of punctuation, grammar, editing mistakes.
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gumtree, thank you for taking the time to write the explanation of claiming and sales. I appreciate it.
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I always enjoy your posts gumtree, but I am confused on something. On both videos shown in your post, the horse changed lead from left right easily. So, what I am I missing? Were you looking for a right to left lead change as well?
[QUOTE=digihorse;9000025]
I always enjoy your posts gumtree, but I am confused on something. On both videos shown in your post, the horse changed lead from left right easily. So, what I am I missing? Were you looking for a right to left lead change as well?[/QUOTE]
I see what you are saying. IMO he seemed reluctant and I was remiss in not explaining that clearly. Don’t like his knee action much especially they way he uses his left.
But in all fairness to the horse I am only watching a very short clip. There may have been nothing going on. But considering his sales results and his racing cut very short. The OP’s comment about his knee issue. It seemed to me worthy of pointing out.
Horses in a 2 year old sale are stabled on the sale ground and go to the track everyday for X amount of days before the Breeze day. Diligent buyers are on the rail everyday watching horses of interest closely.
Every horse these days are being video by several companies that analyze stride, you name it. A buyer pays a fee for their thoughts and data.
Very useful in a lot of ways. But sometimes too much information gets in the way also.
For all I know I could be competently wrong about everything I wrote. Which is why I said “take everything with a grain of salt, mine included”.
I don’t know what the rules and regs are nor how the seller and or the seller’s agent feels about releasing a sales Vet report after the fact. But the OP maybe able to get it from the consignor maybe the Sales Company. Save some money on vetting in the future.
If I were the owner I would release it to the OP and be very happy where the horse ended up.
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Your perspective is very interesting, gumtree! I really do appreciate the thought and time you put into your response. My parents had QH racehorses before I was born, but I know very little about how horses are brought up to run so this was enlightening. The purchase price for this horse is such that I don’t feel like I’m taking a huge financial risk if he does turn out to have issues. I’m going to have some images done of both knees, just to be safe. I also don’t plan for him to have a particularly physically demanding job. The hunt I ride with doesn’t have long hard runs because of the terrain. As a whipper in I spend a fair amount of time in a small area and need a horse that can stand around just as well as it can go forward and we very rarely HAVE to jump anything. For now Simon (his new name) is just going to hang out, relax and grow up some more. Well, if my mare will let him, she’s pretty smitten and annoying!
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Thank you gumtree! I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts, and know OP will benefit from your comments. It was kind of you to take the time to help out OP.
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OP, best of luck with your new guy (that canter looks soooo comfy), and gumtree thanks so much for your posts. Very cool to see things from the inside of the industry.
Quick update. I gave Simon a month off when I purchased him and have been just walking and trotting him around my property since mid-February. I’ve taken him off property once to an event at a local eventing facility mostly just to see how he handled being around other horses and some commotion. I continue to be amazed by this horse’s disposition. He is calm, kind, smart and quite lazy! When I tell people he last raced in November they are flabbergasted. Only time will tell if this is how he will be forever, but thus far I’m so happy to have him! I will take him to some trail rides over the summer and get him out and about before fox hunting next fall. I’ll post some pics and videos later, but wanted to give an update.
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@dynamite0319 Im reviving your old post to see how Simon has done for you. I’m on my way home from Ocala with a Ghostzapper colt in my trailer. He’s just turned four, and I know why he left the track. Huge hole in the SDFT. So, we are looking at a super
long rehab, but I have the time and the space. What I liked most about him and what encouraged me to give him a shot (no one else wanted to take a chance) is his disposition. Calm, curious and sweet. If we survive months in a stall and hand walking, I’m hoping to have a nice BN level partner.
The fact that he looks almost hust like Ben doesn’t hurt!
[USER][/USER] thank you for your detailed insights on how this world works!
Anyway, I’m interested in how yours has done and and what you think!
Libby and Gossamer, who I think is going to be called Spider when he’s at home.
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@Bensmom I LOVE my gelding and I would buy every Ghostzapper I could get my hands on if I had unlimited funds and space! Simon has the most amazing brain AND he’s stunning. I’m currently foxhunting him for his first season (he’s 5 now so I gave him some time) and he’s been a dream so far. He has the energy to go forward, but he has an inherently calm demeanor. I could ride his canter from one end of this country to the other it’s so smooth.
It sounds like you got a good one! The brain sounds just like Simon’s! From what I’ve read about Ghostzapper babies, that seems to be the norm. What is the damside breeding of your horse? I’m super excited for you, if not a little bit jealous! I’ll PM you my info so you can find me on Facebook and we can keep in touch!
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Sent you a request!
Spider is Ghostzapper x Take D’Tour (Tour D’Or) – nice damside breeding. His Dam was sold when he was weaned in foal, and was bought by Calumet. She did well on the track herself: [TABLE]
[TR]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD] 10[/TD]
[TD] 8[/TD]
[TD] 0[/TD]
[TD] $1,047,740[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
starts wins seconds - total winnings
Bless his heart, he didn’t run like momma or daddy. I’d love to figure out where he was his 2 year old year, which has no recorded works or starts in the US. There is a possibility he was running in Poland or Russia, so he may have more results than I know of – I’m still digging! 
