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GM is nothing but a bully.

Hunter/Jumper
#501

[QUOTE=Bethe Mounce;5345462]
From what I understand, all participating riders were invited based on a performance record in the show ring. It is a wonderful opportunity, no doubt. Clinics and lessons are where one learns and makes the mistakes. However, what I was seeing (I was educated in Europe, not here) makes me concerned what trainers are teaching. Flatwork, stressed by Mr. Morris, doesn’t appear to be as stressed by the trainers. Flatwork makes a jumper, not the jumping. A following hand over the fence is correct as Mr. Morris mentioned many times. Here in America the opportunity to ride many horses is limited. I think I expect too much from young riders, alot was expected from me at that age, more than what was asked at this clinic. But, I cannot compare my young rider days to the current young rider days. That is not fair. I expect to see effective riding, not perched in the saddle. The excercises he asked of you guys were not easy, that is a given. The courses he asked you to jump were not easy. It appeared to be more about counting strides than anything else. There is SO much more to jumping courses than that. Mr. Morris and I will disagree on the stride thing always. I expected to see everyone know how to use a stick correctly…especially the gal with the horse that wasn’t happy with going forward at times. I guess I am just too old school. I expected more. Young riders should have every opportunity to excel, clinics with Mr. Morris are certainly part of that path. The equitation ranks, from what I have seen, don’t produce many international level riders. Form, is important, always…but there are times when the perfect position is sacrificed. The toes out thing is always a pet peeve of mine. It may be how riding is taught. It is not how I teach it. That, however, does not make me be right. I want effective riders who are flexible with every horse they sit on. By the time I was yalls age, I had done so much more. I guess I want to see you guys have those opportunities too…so much so that you ride every day and never sit on the same horse twice. Some of the best riders don’t have the perfect form. Europe certainly produces very very good riders without an equitation division at their horseshows. Hunters don’t exist over there either. From what I see the equitation division produces riders who appear stiff with their upper bodies on horses that are already trained…I would prefer to see riders on horses they have brought thru the levels as opposed to buying that already trained horse. Yes, it is twice as hard, but at least you are learning more than just pushing buttons. Good luck with your green horses.[/QUOTE]

Then you have not observed very many trainers here in the US. I have ridden with a variety of trainers up and down the east coast, and every single one of them stressed flatwork far more than over fence work. Essentially, jumping is dressage between fences, at least that is how I’ve been taught. I’m disappointed to read that someone from another country views all US trainers this way. I took lessons from so many people, you would think I would have found these trainers that were heavy on the over-fences work, but I never stumbled over a single one - and really, I have a LOT of negative things to say about several of them, but that would not be one of them!

#502

MHC:

Congrats on being able to participate in this clinic! And I wanted to say that your posts to this thread are great, thank you for taking the time to respond. You seem like a very well rounded young lady!

Good luck with your horses and your continuing career!

#503

I attended a GM clinic about a month ago with a friend who is getting back into jumping/eventing. (She use to event at the advanced level.) I focus on dressage, but really enjoy the jumping discipline (use to event at the lowest level) and was excited about the opportunity to observe an icon in action. I am pretty mentally and physically tough when I’ve had to be in my dressage lessons (bloody knees, riding a few days after a collapsed lung, start youngsters, etc. I’m no pansy, by any means.). Anyway, I state this just to show I don’t expect to be coddled or told I’m good when I’m not. But…I was disappointed in some of the things GM said to the riders. I do not have a problem with corrections or telling someone they need to get stronger or fitter, or repeat an exercise or even raising your voice or showing some exasperation. But, to cite an example, he called one rider a “blonde bimbo” (and it wasn’t in a joking manner). And, his negative comments weren’t reserved just for the riders. And, as he did his summary sermon to the riders and the auditors, he said sharply to one of the auditors in the front row who was bouncing her foot up and down: “Stop that. It’s irritating me. Use some self-discipline.” While obviously he has a lot of knowledge and skills and it was interesting to see him ride and jump a couple of horses and make them go beautifully, I was disappointed that he demanded self-discipline of others, but seemingly not of himself. :slight_smile: Oh, well, overall I enjoyed the clinic.

#504

Tell that to someone teaching teaching an engineering class… who doesn’t find it necessary, effective or even truthful to call his students stupid.

Many engineering students fall out of their desks and slam into the ground at a high rate of speed? :wink:

There is an enormous difference between teaching a student and coaching an athlete.

I do see your point and what you’re saying…but in sports it’s uncommon to find a coach with a competitive team in a dangerous/high injury producing sport that trains without calling their athletes jackwagons from time to time.

The military is known for having used this method for centuries simply because the attention grabbing verbal cues do most often produce the most highly motivated soldiers striving towards the elusive praise. It increases motivation and results by a whole lot.

Sports have had teams and teams of psychologists and behavioral experts that coach the coaches on how to coach competitive athletes. Guess how these coaches train?

Simply put, it works.

for the 1 or 2 horses and riderts his may motivate to ride better; I am certain there are a half dozen for whom it does not:cry:; what , I find regrettable is that , the latter group; often label themselves “failures,” " cowards/ dumbbells."not understanding that they are not that ;

It is not the job of a sports coach to provide personal therapy to his/her athletes. If a person is going to label themselves a failure over what one person in their life says…they need therapy. The coach trains them how to compete, how to stay safe, how to advance in the sport. Not to provide personal therapy.

Folks…GM is a sports coach. And a horse trainer. He’s not a life coach and not a therapist. He’s not a teacher in a classroom. He’s not a babysitter and he’s not our mom/dad.

He’s using the same coaching methods for humans that pretty much all dangerous sports use. Hockey, football, boxing, rugby, wrestling, etc. And all these contact and/or dangerous sports (and riding is pretty up there with catastrophic injuries in the sports world folks) use the same methods they’ve taken from the military. And all use these methods because they work.

There are plenty of coaches out there in riding who use different methods. GM happens to not be one of those. He’s proven over the decades what he does works for him and his students. If you aren’t him or one of his students…it shouldn’t be an issue at all. We can’t condemn somebody we’d never want to train with anyways for using a method some of us aren’t happpy with. That’s just the height of ridiculousness to me.

It makes zero sense to want to change what works from a top master in this sport and what his students flock to him for just because a handful of people think they’d be emotionally fakakta if they ever rode in his clinics. Even though they never plan to anyways.

FWIW…no, top athletes or those aspiring to the top do not usually do well if they find the rare “dumbell” comment emotionally crippling or that it constitutes actual domestic violence. :rolleyes:

Not belittling DV, but seriously? The rider herself had zero issue with this and there are people on this thread trying to force everyone else to feel the way they do over this because they can’t imagine anyone else having a different personality/coping level. And all over a person giving clinics that they’d never want to attend anyways. Is the breast beating because they want to take a clinic with him and he needs to change how he does things so they’re comfortable doing so? or did they never even entertain the thought of taking a clinic with him yet still want him to change his ways even though none of his students have the same issues with him others might have? Either way, it’s silly IMO.

And newsflash:
People can be capable of not having a single issue with being called a dumbell or even being yelled at when being coached and that does not make them an unenlightened creten.

Feh.

#505

I’m with MB on this - I specialize in PTSD, and I truly have no problem with a COACH doing what GM did. If the girl was 3, it would be a different story - clearly, this was not the case. DV is completely separate (and quite serious, I might add), and while I appreciate your desire to advocate for those you perceive being wronged, please know that these riders do not feel that way.

I had a trainer that used to say to me on NUMEROUS occasions “I cannot believe you have a Master’s degree and you did THAT??!!” (typically, he said ride the jump to the left, I rode to the right, therefore needing to shorten by two strides) - you know, stuff I SHOULD have been capable of doing, but really, I cannot tell my left from my right sometimes!:eek: I also had a trainer once tell me I had no business riding if I was not willing to go as fast as she asked me to. So, I did an emergency dismount, and walked to the end of the road to wait for my mother. I was 10. A GOOD trainer knows how to get the best from his or her students. My dad is a coach in another sport, and he can be very hard on his players, but they love him and they often win. But they work VERY hard for it.

Your trainer is not your best friend, they are not your school teacher, they are not your parent, and they are not your therapist. They are your RIDING COACH. If you cannot take the critique, talk to your fellow riders, and ask how they feel when the trainer says those things - if they look as though they’re going to cry, perhaps your trainer IS an ass. However, if they ask you what you’re talking about, perhaps you need to re-evaluate how you interpret what others are saying. No, you do not HAVE to take it, but I can assure you that learning to accept a hard critique from your riding coach will surely prepare you for your professors and supervisors/bosses. If you are miserable, find another trainer - you may just need a different style. Many here have admitted to not wanting to ride with GM for a variety of reasons - mine os probably more odd than the others, but if you knew me, it would make perfect sense. :wink:

#506

There you go.

The good outweighed the bad.

Different methods work for different people. If you don’t like his methods, don’t ride in or audit his clinics.

#507

The old military method of cutting you down and then building you up again is passe in the context of training the modern athlete. For the few athletes who truly want to be the best of the best the coaches do not have to put them down, there is a team working to bring out the best in them - same as in the business models of successful companies.

GM is not in the league of deliberately cutting down - he is just who he is and sincerely wants to help riders ride better…he’s funny, charming and quick, too.

#508

I’m a professor and a lifelong rider. I wouldn’t yell at my students because it’s counter-productive to that type of learning, which is entirely mental. Sports are physical and competitive- very, very, very different from academia.

Comparing the two makes me laugh and laugh and laugh. Like this: :lol:

#509

Great post!

#510

A good coach knows what motivates the athlete. Insulting may work on some people and is, for sure, a disaster on others. Personally, a pointed talking-to is the way to motivate the ‘slackers,’ without belittling. And not so sure GM would have known this student so well that he would know ‘belittle’ is the approach with her…

I personally believe in rigorous and high standards in teaching and expect my students to go for it. Riding is a metaphor for life, and in addition to riding and horse care, I hope that the student walks away with some reinforced self-belief and confidence to engage in something outside their comfort zone. And I don’t want students hanging on for my praise – that’s great for my ego, but I want them over time to transfer this to ‘doing it for themselves,’ b/c they’ve learned to value their efforts and themselves.

Students are never doing themselves a favor with low standards and mediocre effort, and I have little patience with repeated mistakes. Yet, there are times to press on them, and there are times to encourage them, and there are days when it’s best left alone.

But calling a student a name just doesn’t cut it for me, and I’m with the OP on how counter-productive an approach it is. You can joke with your students and have fun with their mistakes, but there are reasons why a student makes mistakes. Discover them and show the student how to manage.

I realize that these are upper-level junior riders, but I also don’t believe for a minute that they are ALL shooting for the Team and for a career in int’l riding. They’re mostly young people who have had an opportunity. It would be silly to turn away from it. I don’t even believe that they are ALL particularly motivated – again, they are young and they have a lot of resources made available by their parents and trainers.

#511

I rode with a very similar trainer this weekend (Michael Plumb).

Sure, he made some interesting comments; but they do motivate you & they aren’t exactly lies :wink: As has been pointed out regarding GM, he was quick to praise. If you do exactly as they ask, even of it’s not perfect the first time, you’ll probably receive a ‘Good.’ When you do it that second time, it better be perfect (it probably will be as these types of trainers are truly gifted at getting the most out of horse & rider), and you will receive a “Brilliant!” or “Therre youu goo!” There’s a trainer for everyone, but if you can deal with the heat, boy, you will learn A LOT! Someone said that ‘MP could ride your horse from the ground,’ and I think that’s a great way to describe it. I had my horse going on a level I didn’t think was possible with JMP giving the instructions, that is a huge confidence boost in itself. Now I am motivated to bring my riding to another level, and I know my horse is capable. That’s a good day.

These great trainers demand 100% effort, and are striving for perfection. They want you to learn something & the horse to go well. I, for one, find it very refreshing to ride with someone who is much more concerned with my horse than myself. MP & GM remind me of my grandfather, so the arrogance is easy to deal with, and the dry-humor is quite familiar.

#512

Lord, can’t believe this rehash and beating the same old dead horse (meaning the TOPIC) yet again is still going on. No alters, sybils, sybals or houseguests either, just repeat, repeat, repeat…what is it, 6 days now?

So, answer me this, those that are in the anti camp. What do you want to happen as a result of all your comments??? Do you want him relieved of any and all duties with the USEF and Team USA? Not invited to conduct this annual Masters clinic at WEF? Be prohibited from numerous private clinics he teaches at??? Or just continue to expand on the fact you do not like his style?

Have you audited, watched railside at the show warm up rings as others were taught or actually cliniced/lessoned with other riders at that International/Olympian level? Or participated/audited the EAP program selection sessions???

How did these huge names compare in style to GM? How did they address repeated mistakes???

#513

[QUOTE=MHCSK725;5344706]
I never participate in these discussions, but after reading this thread, I felt the need to register for an account so that I could add my input.

As a rider who participated in this clinic, I would like to say that most of you are being oversensitive and really quite ridiculous. George was tough on us, but also was very quick to compliment us when we did something correctly. He was also very quick to criticize himself during the photo critique saying things such as, “Do I really look that bad?” “My elbows look terrible…Don’t copy that…” He was tough when riders were not doing what he was asking them to do, and became impatient when he had to repeatedly ask someone to do the same thing. None of his comments, both positive and negative, were undeserved. I also think it is important to point out that upper level riding is not a sport for the weak. Riders need to be tough, both physically and mentally, and sometimes that means riding with a trainer who tells it like it is, instead of “holding one’s hand” throughout the entire lesson. So if a rider cannot handle this “tough love” every so often, he or she may want to consider a different career.

Furthermore, I think it is crucial to recognize the horseman that George truly is. George’s sympathy and care for the wellbeing of the horse were prevalent throughout all of his lessons. He has a specific reason for EVERY SINGLE THING that he does in his riding, training, and horse care. His vast knowledge, experience, and ability to pick up on each horse’s needs as an individual is what sets him apart at the top of our sport. George is patient with the horses, and never advocated using shortcuts, or taking the easy way out when training. He is amazing. In his 70’s, he is still more interested and involved with the sport than most. And I firmly believe that unless you have accomplished as much as he has in your lifetime, you have no right to criticize him.

Responding to those who criticized George’s comment that the American culture (which he admitted to being a part of) as a whole being lazy and undisciplined must realize that this comment is extremely true. Very few people here want to put in the time and effort to correctly train a horse. Many people want a quick fix, so that they can get in the ring and win. Kids don’t want to learn how to take care of their own horses, because they can just pay a groom to do it. People don’t want to practice their flatwork, as they would just prefer to get on, jump around, and horse show. George was simply implying that Americans need to make a conscious effort to be willing to work hard, to be patient, to become true horsemen, instead of always striving for the show ring quick fixes.

In response to Bethe Mounce, I was one of the riders chosen from the USHJA Emerging Athlete Program to participate in this clinic. I have never once been to an equitation final, and have spent my past two years working with my two young, green horses, bringing them along pretty much on my own. I do not ride with a big name trainer. I was lucky enough to have been able to borrow a wonderful horse to ride in the clinic, as I did not believe it was a job that my six-year-old jumper was ready to tackle. This was a huge, wonderful opportunity for me, and a truly, an experience of a lifetime. Yes, there are areas that I most definitely need to work on. However, that was the purpose of the clinic. It was a learning experience, the purpose of which was to help to further educate us, so that we can hopefully later become top riders in our sport. I also must say, that all of the other riders participating in the training session were more than qualified. They all rode beautifully. No one was perfect, and everyone had certain things that they needed to work on, but that was the point. The purpose of this clinic was not to take riders who are already ready top levels of international competition, and put them together for a training session. It was to take riders who show potential, and further educate them on what it takes to be a top competitor in the sport.[/QUOTE]

This rider knew why she was there and what it was about. There’s really not a whole lot more to add after this wonderful post!!! I don’t know right off which rider you were, but I’m sure I enjoyed watching you if this is your attitude. Keep it up, you’ll go far :slight_smile:

#514

does anyone know who the petite girl in the second group on the bay with the big white blaze was?

#515

I stopped reading after about 19 pages, but a few things caught my eye:

  1. The sweetest looking old Amish woman I know routinely calls people a$$holes. And not “Thou art an a$$hole” either, much more direct. Like my grandmother.

  2. Having been in the military, their training model works very well. Believe it or not the abuse is very constructive & motivational. The shame is that is has been dumbed down because some people complained that eating sweet potatoes & liver with a spoon while not looking at it was too hard. The best preparation I had for it was riding with my mother (What the he!! are you doing up there…). One of the biggest issues kids have in the service today is that they have too much self esteem and can’t believe they actually have to clean a toilet, even after boot camp.

  3. My last riding instructor is always worried that her kids might get upset while they ride if she is too rough on them or pushes too hard. They usually don’t place higher than 4th at shows, local or otherwise. I quit riding with her when I realized I rode worse than when I started. The irony is that she was a successful juvenile/amatuer rider when she rode with a tough trainer who wasn’t all sweetness & roses. She has yet to see the disconnect here.

  4. “Dumbell” is going to do psychological harm to someone in high school? Are you serious? I heard worse than that on the bus in grade school 25 years ago, never mind the high school lunch table. If a person can’t handle that at 16, they have been seriously overprotected, and need a crash course in the real world.

#516

Re point #2: The point of military…‘motivation’…is in fact to destroy you and rebuild you as a functioning member of a unit. What is the purpose of that in riding? It’s not a communal activity requiring unit cohesion.

#517

[QUOTE=MHM;5345497]
Bethe Mounce, the equitation ranks do not produce international level riders? Really?

So in your mind the following riders have not ridden at that level?

Meredith Michaels Beerbaum, Brianne Goutal, Hillary Dobbs, Ray Texel, Nikki Simpson, Chris Kappler, McLain Ward, Candice King, Peter Wylde, Leslie Howard, Katie Prudent, etc., etc., all the way back to and including GM himself.

And that’s just off the top of my head.[/QUOTE]

The equitation ranks are full of riders, this is a handful. I see gazillions of riders in the equitation ranks at shows…if the equitation ranks are going to be the “powerhouse” of future international riders, then there is a problem…money! Those who qualify for the finals have the finances available to do so. They have the means to lease those sought after equitation horses… Sure, there are some riders who have done it the hard way without all the money in the world just by being an effective rider and being in the right time at the right place.

#518

No (although we can argue that unit cohesion is created by each member performing to a specific standard), but this was no generic “riding lesson” thus many comparisons are simply not valid. It’s not a typical classroom either-it is a highest level in this particular sports master clinic.

I just wonder of some are aware of the fact the other names tossed out as a possible successor to GM are about as tolerant as he is of repeated mistakes and lack of attention. At least one of them can be outright mean-something I just didn’t see when I watched this.

#519

[QUOTE=MHCSK725;5345646]
Actually, Bethe, the two riders from the Emerging Athletes Program were not selected based on a performance record in the show ring. The purpose of the EAP is to give opportunities to riders who show potential to be professionals in the industry, but have not necessarily had the chance to produce an extensive show record. It has nothing to do with equitation rankings, or show ring performance. The two winning riders from the EAP were chosen based on riding talent, overall horsemanship, as well as a written test score. They were most definitely NOT chosen according to their show record.[/QUOTE]

Then I stand corrected. I also noticed not a single rider came from the West Coast. But, then again, it was only two riders chosen from the EAP. Why not more? Perhaps more did not apply to go to Florida? From my observations (each morning at 5 am here in Calif), everyone appeared to come from the equitation ranks.

#520

So what???

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