Whether or not he ruined anyone’s riding career with his arrogant and rude behaviour is irrelevant.
To treat anyone, let alone a person who has graciously volunteered their time to help make the running of something of the magnitude of WEG, with a dismissive wave of the hand
is just poor manners.The man is an ASS!
In the scope of life’s accomplishments, he is a horse trainer for God’s sake!!!
Yes, he has been successful in helping develop the abilities of some very talented riders.
What he hasn’t done is contribute some greatness for mankind,those folks are all well educated and generally well raised.
He obviously has an incredibly over inflated sense of self worth. Must be lonely to be him, imagine how he’d feel outside his world where no one really cares who he is and what he has done with a horse. He will need those people someday and how would he feel if they waved him off with a hand?
Perhaps his brilliance with a horse isn’t enough intelligence in life to allow him to know you never know who someone you haven’t met really is.
The excusing of bad behavior is but one symptom of why this sport will never be counted in the same league as, say, NASCAR. The dismissive and/or rude behavior of the “stars” of the show alienate the supporters of the sport and hinder the development of a “gate” (those willing to pay to watch) Therefor, the costs of the sport are passed to the participants (the “grassroots”) who are used to finance and perpetuate this “to the manor born” aura that surrounds horse sports of many kinds. If the public could establish an affinity for these “stars”, maybe they would pay to watch their favorites participate in the sport…until then we can wonder what make folks pay LOTS of money to watch cars go left, left, left…and WE have to extort the funds for our chosen sport form those at the lowest levels of our sport…and the base is shrinking…
[QUOTE=faraway46;5355690]
I said the exact same thing in page 18, 25 and 28.
If you can turn me into Mclain Ward, I’ll let you strap me to a cart, whip me like a mule and yell “Yeeeeeha! Giddy up, you dumbell!!” I will still be eternally grateful for helping me reach my riding dreams…
I might be selling myself cheap but what do I care! I’m going to the Olympics! :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
Faraway46 - you and my son would be best friends on that point! And actually, me too, except for the fact that I'm way too old for such aspirations. You also made another good point- this thread is actually to debate if bullying is an effective teaching tool. When faced with a student that shows the same " disobedience" as GM faced, my favorite line is, " Are you deaf or stupid?" Is this bullying? I don't think so. Ask one of my students. I have. I frequently ask if they think I'm too tough on them. If they say "No" then I promise them I will get tougher. Is my statement meant to demean the hearing impaired? Absolutely not! I just want to know why the student did not do as I asked. Both my sons used to be competetive gymnasts. Their coach was very verbally abusive, a true bully. You can bet, they lasted it out about 2 years, and now thy don't even want to hear the words gymnastics. And 2ndyrgirl, I am sorry for how you feel about your encounter w/ GM. Do you coach? I can't guarantee it, but his mind may have been so occupied either with what the team was doing(awful) or at that point formulating a battle plan, or whatever - he was there to work. Someone posted that's why athletes are scheduled for meet and greets. By the same token, Mr Morris was exceedinlgy kind to my son at the Sessions - spoke with him several times,but always prior to beginning the day's teaching. Rileyt, you actually answered your own question at the beginning of this post - in so many words you said I don't know why I'm posting this and I know where it will go. And it did.And in addition to my tickets
I also voluteered, because it is something I believe in.
And for the record, showjumping had not happened yet.
And like it or not, he isn’t a just “private” riding instructor, he’s the coach of the everloving USA Equestrian TEAM! If he hasn’t, at the age he is, and the level he’s achieved, perceptive enough to realize he may just be insulting a person that is in, or could be in, a position to influence donations for the team (which he solicits via my mailbox on a regular basis)
then he has no right to call anyone else that he perceives to have a lack of cognitive abilities a dumbell.
My suspension of donations has less to do with Mr. Morris himself than a lack of a response to a very respectfully worded letter to the USET Foundation. Had they at least acknowledged (noticed I have never said I required an apology) my communication, I would still be happily writing checks in exchange for whatever little merchandise perk they’re sending out this year.
Well stated Jumphigh…but what do the likes of GM care about the future of the sport or where the money will come from to continue to pay he and his cohorts.
People keep doing it for the “privilege” of being subjected to verbal abuse:(
[QUOTE=Jumphigh83;5356769]
The excusing of bad behavior is but one symptom of why this sport will never be counted in the same league as, say, NASCAR. [/QUOTE]
That made me laugh! Have you ever sat in the stands at a NASCAR race?
95% + of the people posting on this board would never qualify to be invited to ride with GM - so much of what has been said about him here is irrelevant… :lol:
[QUOTE=Jumphigh83;5356769]
The excusing of bad behavior is but one symptom of why this sport will never be counted in the same league as, say, NASCAR. The dismissive and/or rude behavior of the “stars” of the show alienate the supporters of the sport and hinder the development of a “gate” (those willing to pay to watch) Therefor, the costs of the sport are passed to the participants (the “grassroots”) who are used to finance and perpetuate this “to the manor born” aura that surrounds horse sports of many kinds. If the public could establish an affinity for these “stars”, maybe they would pay to watch their favorites participate in the sport…until then we can wonder what make folks pay LOTS of money to watch cars go left, left, left…and WE have to extort the funds for our chosen sport form those at the lowest levels of our sport…and the base is shrinking…[/QUOTE]
The above is a far off comparison and you cannot blame one guy (GM) for the fall of a sport because you don’t like him :lol:
If you have ever been involved in horse politics I think your tone would change… The “average” person doesn’t have horses. A LOT of people drive cars. Constantly baseball parks and condos (what most people do) squeeze out horse areas…
Now, look at the TB race industry… it’s pretty popular… however how many people can ride a race horse? It’s limited and it costs A LOT to manage and own a horse. It’s a different world completely.
[QUOTE=dags;5356720]
May I never hold such esteem that a split moment of my very long day; my mind enthralled, my laurels resting, my hand on auto-pilot, filling in while the head is elsewhere, have that much impact on one person. Who, in turn, is so profoundly insulted they punish an entire team of people who were in no way related to that split second.
May I never be so great that I get hung out to dry for using colorful, easily identifiable metaphors, while those doing the hanging show equally little, if not far less, restraint of their own language.
May I never be so successful that my own achievements are questioned not on their merit, but on my quirks. Quirks being what they are, endearing to some, positively intolerable by others.
The limelight is just not nearly as attractive in this 24/7 communique world.
I expect the president of Alltech to be diplomatic, he is a business man, his job is to be sure your smiling while he processes your credit card and he’s clearly successful at that. I expect politicians to be diplomatic, likewise as they promise things they have no intention of fulfilling.
Please just let GM be a human. I’m not of the “God” camp and this is why. I just want him to be the best chef d’equippe he can be, the best trainer and horseman he can be. And has been said 265,000 times on this thread, that proof is in the pudding.
And good grief, did you SEE our show jumping team at WEG? I mean lordy lordy, it was a disaster. We totally fell apart. As an actual horse trainer I am 100% familiar with being enthralled by the performance of student and horse. If they’ve suddenly stumbled into a pit of suckiness you can bet I’m down there with them. This is why athletes and coaches have scheduled meet and greets - they are not paid to be diplomatic and need fair warning to turn off the game in their head and focus on their (notoriously lacking) communication skills.
Indygal, I hope you’ll reconsider your commitment to the overall sport, because it is far more than GM. He is not god and does not need to be lifted heads and shoulders above everyone else. But he absolutely should be respected for his equestrian achievements.[/QUOTE]
Very well said!
Here’s how it DOES compare to Nascar
Fans sit in the stands and buy gear to support their “team”.
Owners in Nascar own a car, not a horse, but have many more expenses than just putting gas in the tank or paying for a place to keep it. They want to compete that car at races, so they need…
Sponsors.
You can bet that in the Sponsor’s tent (which is where I was), that all the car owners, drivers, crew chiefs were all as nice as pie to anyone they came across in that tent that was not carrying a tray or pouring drinks, because you never know where your next big sponsorship is going to come from.
That’s where I felt GM was wrong. Not just because I was personally insulted, but his riders and horse owners depend on him as a representative of our team to behave properly in social situations. Competing horses at an upper level takes an amazing amount of money, and two things are capable of raising that money. Competition results and taking the time to do what is necessary to get and keep sponsors. Buck Davidson had a not terriblely stellar WEG, and I’ve met his owners on several occasions, they are lovely people. Mark Phillips might not be my favorite coach, but he knows which side his bread is buttered on. GM apparently, has the bread, the knife and the butter.
[QUOTE=2ndyrgal;5357052]
Fans sit in the stands and buy gear to support their “team”.
Owners in Nascar own a car, not a horse, but have many more expenses than just putting gas in the tank or paying for a place to keep it. They want to compete that car at races, so they need…
Sponsors.
You can bet that in the Sponsor’s tent (which is where I was), that all the car owners, drivers, crew chiefs were all as nice as pie to anyone they came across in that tent that was not carrying a tray or pouring drinks, because you never know where your next big sponsorship is going to come from.
That’s where I felt GM was wrong. Not just because I was personally insulted, but his riders and horse owners depend on him as a representative of our team to behave properly in social situations. Competing horses at an upper level takes an amazing amount of money, and two things are capable of raising that money. Competition results and taking the time to do what is necessary to get and keep sponsors. Buck Davidson had a not terriblely stellar WEG, and I’ve met his owners on several occasions, they are lovely people. Mark Phillips might not be my favorite coach, but he knows which side his bread is buttered on. GM apparently, has the bread, the knife and the butter.[/QUOTE]
Okay so you are comparing “sponsorships”…
So I ask you this - for every 100 people that sponsor USEF have a positive experience and you have a bad one with GM you don’t donate anymore. Got it.
So then NASCAR has a 100% guarantee that if you sponsor someone, they will “never” make said sponsor mad?
That’s one heck of a quarantee!
I used to frequent the pits and there were lots of wolf whistlin’ going on… yea, real professional!
And to add - you usually sponsor the cause - you will NEVER like everyone!
I did not blame GM for anything, I blamed bad social behavior. And no, the point was not that anyone would “want” to “sit on the stands of NASCAR” but that they actually HAVE people to sit in the stands. Sigh…never mind…no wonder this sport has a limited fan base. :rolleyes::dead:
[QUOTE=doublesstable;5355524]
So many here act like they have never been stressed, had a bad day or had an extremely tiring day. …[/QUOTE]
If I’m working with donors or volunteers, my having a bad day is not their problem. I actually have to do this, so I am not talking in theoretical terms. I can feel like crap or be having a truly horrible day but I have to shut up, suck up, and put on a smile no matter what I’m feeling. I can get fired if I don’t do that.
If you are talking to the donors and expect them to keep being donors, check your ego and your personal problems at the door. Doesn’t matter who you are. If you’re so miserable you can’t be civil, remove yourself from the situation.
[QUOTE=Muggle Mom;5356638]
If you are willing to judge GM based on a “dismissive wave” over the legions of great things he has done in his life, then it speaks much more to your arrogance than GM’s character.:mad:[/QUOTE]
This might be a bit OT, but I for one would like to be enlightened as to the “legions of great things” he’s done.
He’s a horse trainer/riding instructor, he doesn’t teach clinics or play chef d’equip for free, I don’t believe.
Does he do any volunteer work or help at animal shelters or anything like that, or donate his time for free to handicap centers or horse rescues?
As an aside, I do believe that to excel at the top levels of any sport there a certain level of mental abuse involved, be it externally or from within oneself. Perhaps part of his motivation is to toughen up riders, and being involved in certain kinds of training and adult learning I can see that. But I have also heard and seen him be very nasty and rude to people both mounted and on foot, and I don’t believe that is ever necessary under any circumstances.
Does he do any volunteer work or help at animal shelters or anything like that, or donate his time for free to handicap centers or horse rescues?
Volunteering…most likely not. I doubt he had free time.
Donating? Yes, very much. He’s a well known philanthropist for human and animal welfare.
[QUOTE=rileyt;5353517]
Respectfully Anyplace Farm and lauriep, I think you are misunderstanding the point that 2ndyrgal and I are making… so let me see if I can at least crystalize the disagreement between the two “camps” (so to speak).
I believe (and I think 2ndyrgal and others believe this too), that GM’s comment should be judged in isolation… at the moment it was made. I believe that because I believe you can only be responsible (and should be responsible) for your choices at the moment you make them. From my vantage point, it doesn’t matter if the girl on the receiving end of it laughed about it, wasn’t mad about it, or whatever. It doesn’t matter if the girl got tons of “riding value” out of the clinic, or none at all. It doesn’t matter if he then said a million nice things to the girl afterward. The question is, in my mind… was it appropriate to say in the first place? I (obviously) think it wasn’t.
I think what I am hearing from many of you, is that you believe his statement should perhaps only be judged in the context of the response. i.e., if it didn’t upset the person it was directed at (who clearly has a tough skin or she wouldn’t be riding in a GM clinic in the first place), then we shouldn’t worry about it. I understand that logic, but I disagree with it.
This may not be a good analogy to this situation, but it may give you another example that will at least shed some light on my thinking: (and no, I’m not comparing the HARM of a horse being euthanized to the harm of a rider being called a dumbbell).
A couple of years ago, there was a big thread on the eventing forum about the very sad demise of Le Samurai - a horse that Amy Tryon was riding at Rolex Kentucky when he broke down 2 jumps from the end of the cross-country course. He had to be euthanized. There was a lot of angst in the eventing community about the event. Many people blamed Amy for not pulling up the very second she felt him bobble… others said it was a forgivable mistake as she only had a split second to make a decision and she didn’t have all the facts in that moment. I’m still not entirely sure how I feel about that incident, but I feel certain of one thing: For me, Amy’s actions should only be judged in the split second she originally had to make them. The terrible terrible outcome shouldn’t figure into the equation. I’m sure there are others who disagree. But I believe being judged on the basis of hindsight isn’t fair.
For the same reason, I think each of us has to be responsible for what we say-- at all times. While some of our mistakes may go unnoticed because they don’t result in a bad outcome, it really doesn’t change the fact that they were mistakes nonetheless. When you same something gratuitously nasty, you don’t really know the effect it will have on the hearer. Many of us have developed nice thick skins over the years and wouldn’t bat an eye. Good for us. But that doesn’t make it less nasty.[/QUOTE]
No, I don’t believe that the “after effects” are how his comment should be judged. I judge it in its context, and see absolutely nothing wrong with “taking a 2X4 upside the rider’s head” to get her to CHANGE her behavior. He had tried explaining, he had tried telling her to watch the other riders, numerous times, but to no avail. So, he tries a little shock value and voila! She HEARS him and makes the change to do the exercise correctly. I see absolutely nothing wrong with trying a new tactic after exhausting others.
We aren’t going to agree. No matter how you try to explain it. I’ve listened to the man since 1974, I have NEVER heard him be intentionally cruel, so it JUST DOESN’T BOTHER ME.
[QUOTE=MistyBlue;5358113]
Volunteering…most likely not. I doubt he had free time.
Donating? Yes, very much. He’s a well known philanthropist for human and animal welfare.[/QUOTE]
Animal Welfare is my thing and I’m not aware of any donations on his part but of course that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Can you be more specific?
Writing a check, although generous and not required, really doesn’t qualify as “legions of great things” on one’s part though.
[QUOTE=mvp;5355941]
IIRC, the OP wasn’t asking about reforming GM. Here question was something along the lines of “when are we/the USEF going to stop worshipping the man if he’s a bully?”
So yes, most of this 30 pages is about whether or not the guy is a bully.
I’d say a good 1/3 of this discussion has been about
“Bully or not, does the end justify the means?”
And “Does bullying coaching or teaching work well enough, often enough to be broadly acceptable?”[/QUOTE]
Actually, the thread is titled something like “GM is nothing but a bully.” That statement alone is complete BS even if you think he IS a bully. Because he is SO MUCH MORE. But ok, focus on one word in one clinic and take everything else out of his collective being and decide he is a bully. Good on ya.
[QUOTE=2ndyrgal;5356830]
I also voluteered, because it is something I believe in.
And for the record, showjumping had not happened yet.
And like it or not, he isn’t a just “private” riding instructor, he’s the coach of the everloving USA Equestrian TEAM! If he hasn’t, at the age he is, and the level he’s achieved, perceptive enough to realize he may just be insulting a person that is in, or could be in, a position to influence donations for the team (which he solicits via my mailbox on a regular basis)
then he has no right to call anyone else that he perceives to have a lack of cognitive abilities a dumbell.
My suspension of donations has less to do with Mr. Morris himself than a lack of a response to a very respectfully worded letter to the USET Foundation. Had they at least acknowledged (noticed I have never said I required an apology) my communication, I would still be happily writing checks in exchange for whatever little merchandise perk they’re sending out this year.[/QUOTE]
So now a dismissive wave of his hand, somthing which is part of GM and I have personally been on the receiving end of many times (without taking offense) is insulting? To insult someone, you need intent. To FEEL insulted is on the receiver. Apparently, you FELT insulted. But I guarantee you, he didn’t INTEND to insult you.
GM was brought up in a very high class family/environment. He went to the best schools (UVA) and has, thoughout his life, spent time with the best people in our sport and the arts and whatever else he turned his hand to. On these forums alone, MANY people have commented on how he has responded with a HANDWRITTEN note to people who have contacted him. Who does that anymore? Additionally, before horse shows got so horribly expensive, he always had 1-2 riders that he sponsored (how do you think Conrad, et al, got their start?) and provided with horses, instruction and financial help. Did you know that? Did you know that the revered Bert deNemethy could also light you up with some less than PC words? Although, usually in Hungarian, so you had to guess at the meaning!
I am sorry for those of you who cannot forgive a man, just a man, for having idiosyncracies that may run counter to your own sensibilities. But really, is it worth all of this hand wringing?
