I’m not a barefoot only person by any means. My dressage horse had been bare his whole life until the age of 6 when my then coach suggested that in order to move up to second level he would need shoes for more “support”. I had my reservations because “if it ain’t broke”, but I agreed to a 1 year trial. The photo below shows exactly what one year in shoes did to my horses feet. Yes in all likelihood the farrier skills were not up to par (he was recommended by the coach). But for my horse, and his feet, shoes were definitely not the answer. FYI we are competing successfully at second level and are schooling third level movements 
[QUOTE=candyappy;7251444]
I really agree with this. My first horse had shoes for 21 years 24/7 365 days a year. Why?? Because I rode the heck out of him every day and he needed them.[/QUOTE]
Same here, although I’m not entirely convinced that my mare actually needed shoes, but I thought she did because I didn’t understand how hoof conditioning worked.
I can shoe so it doesn’t cost me anything beyond materials to nail shoes on, so the decision to keep mine barefoot has way more to do with hoof health than with cost.
I think one of the reasons that so many horses are still shod is because so many owners don’t know if their horse actually needs shoes or not, nor do they want to mess with boots or learn enough about hooves to make decisions about how to best manage them. It’s just so much easier to have a farrier come every few weeks and nail the shoes on and be done with it.
I know someone who has shown her horses into the fei levels and last time I saw them they were still barefoot, which is what makes me think that keeping shoes on horses who never spend much time on challenging footing is more about superstition (and perhaps lack of understanding about how hooves develop) than actual need.
JLR1, that is what a farrier did to that foot. Shoes did not do that.
That wasn’t about “shoes were not the answer”. That was about “that farrier needs to go to school and not get paid to do any of that “trimming” he thinks he’s doing so well”.
Yes, the other side of “some people keep their horses barefoot because it’s cheaper” is the segment of people who look at shoes as just easier because they don’t want to or don’t know how to manage bare feet.
And before someone gets huffy about THAT statement, yes, I DO realize there are some situations where management that would allow a given horse to have good bare feet is not possible - not enough turnout, or only turnout on soft sand, etc.
I know someone who has shown her horses into the fei levels and last time I saw them they were still barefoot,
That’s awesome :yes: I would LOVE to see the feet (and if that’s even remotely possible, pm is fine, no need for public, but I totally get it you’re not going to do that :))
which is what makes me think that keeping shoes on horses who never spend much time on challenging footing is more about superstition (and perhaps lack of understanding about how hooves develop) than actual need.
In part that IS true. In part, it still comes down to the quality of the foot (assuming the diet has been properly addressed) vs the ground its working on vs the quality of riding (yes, how you ride the horse can positively or negatively affect the foot) and other things. But I wholeheartedly agree far too many people put shoes in the minute they start riding or jumping the horse and never, ever give him a chance to have a say in whether he needs the shoes.
My super fancy performance horse was barefoot when she placed very well at Devon. Most in her class were shod. Shrug. It was funny because someone asked why I don’t have shoes on her and my response was she doesn’t NEED shoes. She was sound, happy, has awesome feet. Every farrier who has done her has commented on how great and healthy her feet are (good genes, her mamma is the same). An issue came up over the summer and she has front shoes on now, but I will most likey have her barefoot in Jan. All my guys at home are barefoot. I ride some of them on trails etc.
Listen to the comfort of the horse you are riding.
Interesting comments JB and I understand why you made them. I also would be inclined to think the same if I only saw the pictures posted; but, I have to say that same farrier (at least I’m 99% sure it’s the same one) is my farrier and has been for 8 years. My horses’ feet all look fantastic both those in shoes and those who are barefoot. I do believe there are more factors in determining hoof healthcare, don’t you?
ETA: I see that from your last post you do acknowledge that there are more factors 
so no need to respond to my question 
[QUOTE=exvet;7252482]
. I do believe there are more factors in determining hoof healthcare, don’t you?[/QUOTE]
Yes, you are correct! Since you know both farriers I used I will say that neither one addressed what was happening, namely under run heels and long toe. I still contend that while the trim/farrier skill may have been an issue, it was being locked into a shoe that was compounding the problem. Certainly genetics, conformation, quality of hoof will determine who can and can’t go barefoot comfortably. My horse was blessed with great feet and for him, barefoot is best.
My Welsh Cob is barefoot in all situations we’re schooling second right now and he has shown no indication of needing shoes. I do have his feet done every 4-5 weeks depending on how they look. He did develop toe cracks but with diet change and farrier discussions they have resolved. We ride in fields, on rocky paths in a sand based arena.
When i was looking for my next horse a strong good set of hooves were on my check list. As my first horse had horrible feet that required serious corrective shoeing, so Ive been on both sides of the fence so to speak. My cob has the definition of perfect feet they are large and hard and well proportioned to him.
exvet, I understand
IME, there are farriers who can do a very good job at trimming and shoeing feet that are basically good and “normal”, those that don’t grow toe or heel in excess of the other, don’t go splat with excess growth, don’t grow crushed heels (they tend to stand up), but who have a difficult time, especially as the resets go on, dealing with feet who don’t adhere to “normal” conventions. I saw that with my 2nd farrier, who did my TB’s feet for years and years. Some of the feet at the barn always looked pretty good, shod or bare. Many though ended up with the same issues of LTLH over time, including mine. Same farrier, horses done by him for 10+ years.
If a farrier sees a foot changing shape like JLR’s did, assuming he’s educated enough to see things are deteriorating, then he’s either (further) educated enough to realize that something needs to change - his trim, the style of shoe, the placement of shoe, length between resets, something - or he’s not. He’s either educated enough to know that he’s doing everything right, and then mention to the owner that they might want to check into something about how the horse is moving, ask if there was an injury, etc, or he’s not.
But to me it’s not acceptable for a farrier to start with the bare foot as shown, and end up with the shod foot as shown, and think it’s ok. I don’t have any idea the conversations, if any, held between JLR and her farrier, but obviously something wasn’t working for that horse, and it wasn’t simply a matter of having shoes on
There’s a whole lot of back story here you are not getting JB. One large piece of information is that the farrier was heavily influenced by the coach. In contrast I dictate what is done to my horses’ feet. I do ask for my farrier’s opinion and fortunately there is NO coach -nor has there ever been- who was able to interfere with that. Not that I didn’t have the same coach because for a period of time I did (which is why I’m privy to many of the details) but I had more clout when it came to any type of healthcare for my horses and you obviously already know why. I suspect strongly that there was outside influences going on here. And I do know that the farrier discussed ‘his’ opinion which was different than the coach with that coach. Also there are some other factors not stated that affect hoof care that I suspect had a play here too. Either way JLR has a lovely horse who moves beautifully and fortunately for him she has found what works and has been sticking with it.
Oh and BTW same farrier is who helped keep my (now sold) PSG horse sound during his career from 2nd level (when the farrier started working for me) through PSG (and at 15 he’s still sound). We had some challenges with White Line disease yet the horse was never off a day and we beat the damn thing in the end. I credit my farrier for that and for it never having come back in the last 4 years. I think a big key is being a team - owner, farrier, vet and doing all the homework you can. This farrier has worked with less than stellar feet and brought them into good health (along with me and mine :winkgrin:). My Oldernburg mare who I sold just recently was evidence to that and her new owner remarked when she got of the trailer just how nice her feet were despite having been told that they were overdue for a trim (transport and trimming were scheduled for the same week).
This farrier REALLY doesn’t deserve the innuendo’s. Like all of us he’s not perfect but he does do a good job on naturally good as well as challenged feet. We’ve even been to shoeing clinics together so I know he’s also willing to keep learning and admit that he doesn’t know everything. Somewhat refreshing imo.
“But to me it’s not acceptable for a farrier to start with the bare foot as shown, and end up with the shod foot as shown, and think it’s ok”
As always JB thank you for you informative posts. I just wanted to clarify that this is a before and after photo of the day I had the shoes pulled to almost a year later and a return to his previous healthy hoof.
ExVet is correct in saying the coach did have quite an influence and whether or not he felt it was best, he did do as she asked.
Jumping in to say that mine has great feet (she’s a Morgan after all), but the legs above them are not so good. She was barefoot when I bought her, and had been so her entire life, but was in central Maryland, not New England. She did chip a bit so we added front shoes. Added rear shoes when she wasn’t coming back well after rear suspensory surgery, and that really helped.
I don’t have perfectly groomed footing to ride on, and we do a lot of trail riding in hard, rocky areas, so it’s possible she’d have shoes on even if her legs were better.
She did end up with “mechanical” laminitis in her RF due to poor farrier care (if your farrier and your vet don’t get along, and one criticizes the other’s work, Bad Things Can Happen.) Switched farriers, put her in front pads with packing, and that took care of it.
I’ve seen people insist on shoes when the horse didn’t need them, and insist on barefoot when the horse could have done better in shoes. More of the latter. Our barn has 4 different “hoof care specialists” (my old farrier, my new farrier, a barefoot specialist, and a guy who does the two Belgians – as in one ton draft horses.)
Thanks for the back story. It doesn’t much change my opinion but it does give me more information. Very few trainers have the education to be telling farriers how to do their job. If the bare foot is the after, but looks like it did before the length of time in shoes, then starting with that look and ending with how the foot looked, still isn’t acceptable, and ultimately it’s on the farrier IMVHO. If you don’t agree with that, that’s your perogative, but that’s just where I’m coming from with my comments
I understand it can get tricky when there are people other than the farrier trying to dictate how to do a horse’s feet. There is a circle of relationships that everyone has to manage. Sometimes the horse suffers for that, even when an owner thinks they are doing the best they can - just lack of education sometimes. we all learn - I’ve been there, though mine was continuing to listen to a farrier tell me what he could and couldn’t do for various reasons, and assuming he knew best because, well, he was the farrier after all
that said, I DO know there are situations where a farrier does as a coach/industry dictate, and continue to do “wrong” by the horse because they feel they are the most qualified to do the “best wrong”, if that makes sense. In the padded saddle horse world, there is a very wrong way to trim and pad those feet, and there is a less wrong way. I’ve got no problem with a good farrier choosing to stay on with a way of trimming and shoeing they dislike, when they feel that they are someone who can at least cause the least amount of damage. I hope that makes sense
[QUOTE=Wirt;7251114]
My “shoe it and get on with it” attitude is abrasive. I am anti-barefoot when it comes to a perfectly healthy horse that someone wants to ride seriously, and someone puts it in their head they might try barefoot, and down that road they go, when there is not reason in the world not to shoe the horse, and be able to ride wherever and whenever they want. That is my peeve. I have seen so many times where the desire to be barefoot over rode common sense, because the owner read the barefoot stuff and the anti-iron shoe “science”, and now its all about “going barefoot” and not riding. I am all about riding, and using horses. I hear “barefoot” and I think, not a serious ride. All though I realize there are exceptions of horses doing things like the Tevis barefoot, but it is usually a selfish endeavor, and rare, and, wait, they needed boots.
So yes, the barefoot craze backyard horses are pet everything natural craze that has permeated the horse culture has driven me to be anti-foot. So excuse me for dumping on you.[/QUOTE]
Well said Wirt!!
[QUOTE=kande04;7252376]
Same here, although I’m not entirely convinced that my mare actually needed shoes, but I thought she did because I didn’t understand how hoof conditioning worked.
I can shoe so it doesn’t cost me anything beyond materials to nail shoes on, so the decision to keep mine barefoot has way more to do with hoof health than with cost.
I think one of the reasons that so many horses are still shod is because so many owners don’t know if their horse actually needs shoes or not, nor do they want to mess with boots or learn enough about hooves to make decisions about how to best manage them. It’s just so much easier to have a farrier come every few weeks and nail the shoes on and be done with it.
I know someone who has shown her horses into the fei levels and last time I saw them they were still barefoot, which is what makes me think that keeping shoes on horses who never spend much time on challenging footing is more about superstition (and perhaps lack of understanding about how hooves develop) than actual need.[/QUOTE]
In many cases above you are right, people shoe the horse because that is what they want to do. They don’t want to mess around with toughening up the feet or using boots or whatever. But that doesn’t make shoeing a horse that could go barefoot wrong. In my case i knew my guy could no way do what I asked of him w/o shoes. I never even wanted to try. Mt current mare has had front shoes in the past, but has been barefoot all around for 3 years now. She goes from shoes to barefoot with no need to toughen up. I don’t shoe her because i don’t ride her hard enough or on terrain that requires it. If that changed the shoes would go on in a heartbeat.
I pulled the shoes off my PSG/I1 horse last year. For the first 10 months I had to be quite careful what I did with him, footing wise - which is where hoof boots come in handy!
Now he can go for a trail ride down the hard top, hack out in the fields (including a little galloping - shh don’t tell the dressage police!), and go to the x-country course. Of course I can’t cork him so if it is too slippery we are relegated to the arena. He had an increase in his PSG/I1 scores of 2-5% from last year and is now working on the middle tour stuff.
I also have a youngster who is barefoot and I have no plans to shoe him.
However, on a horse with issues going barefoot, I would have no issues shoeing them! My farrier is very competent and I got my horse to PSG/I1, shod, with him shoeing the horse. The only difference is now the feet are able to “self wear” and do not get so uneven, bonus is the $150 savings per cycle!!
If you don’t agree with that, that’s your perogative, but that’s just where I’m coming from with my comment
No I don’t agree with it particularly knowing that there was more going on; but, maligning others without all the facts or holding those to an all holy goal that isn’t possible in the given circumstances isn’t all too unfamiliar to me either. I will fully agree with the fact that the horse’s feet are better now.
Bowing out. I was merely trying to give my experiences and opinions that led to the comments I made.
[QUOTE=~DQ~;7253290]
I pulled the shoes off my PSG/I1 horse last year. For the first 10 months I had to be quite careful what I did with him, footing wise - which is where hoof boots come in handy!
Now he can go for a trail ride down the hard top, hack out in the fields (including a little galloping - shh don’t tell the dressage police!), and go to the x-country course.[/QUOTE]
Kindred spirit, here. I LOVE to gallop my horse (he is shod).
Of course I can’t cork him so if it is too slippery we are relegated to the arena. He had an increase in his PSG/I1 scores of 2-5% from last year and is now working on the middle tour stuff.
Not to poo-poo your success, but shouldn’t your horse improve from year to year anyway?
I also have a youngster who is barefoot and I have no plans to shoe him.
I have a youngster who is doing fine barefoot at age three, and he has great feet so I will postpone shoeing as long as possible. But at any point it starts limiting his performance or my ability to ride him I will shoe him. I have EXCELLENT farriers.
[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;7253399]
Not to poo-poo your success, but shouldn’t your horse improve from year to year anyway?
I have a youngster who is doing fine barefoot at age three, and he has great feet so I will postpone shoeing as long as possible. But at any point it starts limiting his performance or my ability to ride him I will shoe him. I have EXCELLENT farriers.[/QUOTE]
The only point to the improvement comment is that the horse still improved, despite having shoes pulled. Not a decrease or stagnation in scores yes the horses should improve year to year!
