"Goes barefoot"

[kande04]

[QUOTE=candyappy;7253244]
In many cases above you are right, people shoe the horse because that is what they want to do. They don’t want to mess around with toughening up the feet or using boots or whatever. But that doesn’t make shoeing a horse that could go barefoot wrong.[/QUOTE]

If the goal is long term soundness, it might, as I have a very strong suspicion that horses who can do their jobs barefoot have a much better chance of remaining sound than those who need shoes.

Not that there’s any way to actually know that, simply because there are too many variables involved, but I do think that chances are very good that shoes are not as benign as many think they are.

In my case i knew my guy could no way do what I asked of him w/o shoes.

What were you asking him to do?

I never even wanted to try.

I think that’s where a lot of horse owners are, which is a very good thing for those who make their livings taking care of others’ horses’ hooves!

[kande04]

[QUOTE=~DQ~;7253290]
Of course I can’t cork him so if it is too slippery we are relegated to the arena.[/QUOTE]

Calks can be added to the boots, and they actually work surprisingly well. They don’t have quite as much grab as steel shoes with calks because the boot flexes more, but almost as much. And of course, the big advantage is that the boots can be removed so no need to keep the calked horses in separate turnouts.

We trail ride all winter in New England so have two sets of boots for each horse, because once the calks are in they’re hard to remove so we just leave them in and have an extra plain set of boots for summer (which don’t get much use).

The only difference is now the feet are able to “self wear”

That’s what I love the most about barefoot: let the hoof wear a little and it will tell you how to trim it–if it needs to be trimmed at all.

[ClassyRide]

[QUOTE=camilouwho;7248534]
So I bought my mare probably about 5 weeks ago and in her sale ad it stated that she “goes barefoot.” … When someone says a horse can go barefoot, to what extent should they be expected to “go”?

…Does anyone have experience with barefoot horses? If you do, do you feed any supplements?

Thanks in advance! :)[/QUOTE]

I haven’t read the responses, so I’m sorry if I’m re-hashing what’s already been said, but I have 3 horses, and all of them are currently barefoot.

To answer the first question, someone selling a horse that “goes barefoot” means, IMHO, that the horse can comfortably go barefoot for whatever it is that person is currently doing with the horse. That does not guarantee that the horse will not need shoes for other activities or footing.

In response to your final two questions, firstly, I do not feed any hoof supplements. The only thing I do sometimes is paint some hoof treatment on their hooves for a while if I see somebody who’s getting a crack, but that’s not often, and chips and such don’t bother me.

My 20 year old gelding is fine barefoot when riding in grass and nicely footed arenas, needs front shoes if we do any kind of trails (because he gets ouchy on stones), and needs all 4 if we’re going up in the mountains for trail rides, as it can get very rocky.

My 10 year old TB mare is also fine barefoot with riding in grass and nice footing, but does best with all 4 shoes if doing any trail riding.

My 3 year old filly is only just starting her riding career and is started very lightly at this point. So far, she appears to have feet that are hard as rocks, but we’ll see how she holds up as training progresses.

My recommendation for you based on my own experience: If the trails you’re going to ride aren’t very rocky, take her out once at a walk and feel her out. If she starts to feel ouchy, go back home and know that you need to figure out some kind of shoeing. If she stays sound, great! Keep her barefoot.

Best of luck to you, and happy riding!

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=JLR1;7252306]
I’m not a barefoot only person by any means. My dressage horse had been bare his whole life until the age of 6 when my then coach suggested that in order to move up to second level he would need shoes for more “support”. I had my reservations because “if it ain’t broke”, but I agreed to a 1 year trial. The photo below shows exactly what one year in shoes did to my horses feet. Yes in all likelihood the farrier skills were not up to par (he was recommended by the coach). But for my horse, and his feet, shoes were definitely not the answer. FYI we are competing successfully at second level and are schooling third level movements

http://s390.photobucket.com/albums/oo346/JLR1/?action=view¤t=832C8496-9D08-42F1-BA1D-7DCCED60B089-21065-00001EC3566F06AD_zpsc08cf182.jpg&evt=user_media_share[/QUOTE]

It’s a little hard to really judge the difference between those feet, since the heels are not visible in the 2nd picture, but there’s plenty to judge in the shod picture.

The two pictures show the work of two different farriers, right?

Why would the coach tell the farrier to leave the toe and heel too long and put a shoe on that’s too small??

[kande04]

[QUOTE=ClassyRide;7253746]

My recommendation for you based on my own experience: If the trails you’re going to ride aren’t very rocky, take her out once at a walk and feel her out. If she starts to feel ouchy, go back home and know that you need to figure out some kind of shoeing. If she stays sound, great! Keep her barefoot.[/QUOTE]

This is the mistake I used to make back when I did a lot more shoeing. The horse would step on a stone and flinch and OMG, time to nail the shoes on. But the problem with that was that the more the hoof was protected the weaker it got.

Once I got my head wrapped around the idea that the hoof needed to be challenged to get stronger, I started managing hooves very differently. Now I just slow down on the stones, or get off and put boots on if they’re too uncomfortable, because I get that the hooves need to be exposed to the footing that they’ll be used on to develop the strength they need to withstand those conditions.

I think that before I was so worried about stone bruises that I was way too quick to slap the shoes on, which of course, just made the hoof weaker so perpetuated the “need” for shoes.

[Kyzteke]

How odd…the last time I posted about “Barefoot” on the Dressage Forum people crucified me (dressage horses barefoot!! How dare she!). Now everyone is all for it.

People…can’t live with 'em…can’t kill 'em without someone complaining.

You know, I’m not sure why farriers get so defensive about the barefoot craze. A farrier can make alot more $$ trimming than shoeing, time-wise. And I predict that in 100 years the idea of nailing metal shoes to a horse’s feet will be looked on as primitive and cruel.

Why? Because the only thing that is slowing “barefoot” down is the technology behind making boots/glue-ons that will serve all disciplines. And those days are coming. I can remember when Easy Boot had ONE style of boot and that was it. Now I can’t even count how many are out there.

If farriers were smart, they would be learning about all the different styles of boots and help their customer pick the ones that would be best for the horse/style…THAT (to me) is the steepest (most expensive) learning curve in going barefoot.

A horse’s foot is a dynamic structure and can be changed (improved or worsened) by it’s environment, diet, etc. Yes, you have a genetic base-line, but we are just starting to realize how much difference all the other stuff makes…and it can be HUGE.

As for “natural”…well, very few of the things we do to and with our horses are “natural” compared to the life of a wild horse. Mustangs seldom do more than walk, unless they are being chased. They pick their footing…it isn’t picked for them. And we won’t even go into stuff like jumping cross country carting around 180lbs, going 100 miles in one day over tough terrain, etc. etc.

Domestic horses work much, MUCH harder than mustangs and it’s our job as care-takers to make sure they can do that job and still stay healthy & comfortable.

Personally, I think most horses who are being used primarily for dressage can go without shoes.

Again, I would tell the OP to ask the former owner all these questions she is asking us…because I have no doubt the former owner knows more about the horse than we do. I get the feeling the OP is no expert in what a well-trimmed foot should look like (because it is ‘natural’ for a barefoot horse to have some minor cracks/chips/etc…just like a mustang).

So be conservative: start by studying up on foot care & “barefoot” principles. Get a set of boots for any riding done outside the arena. Try to connect w/others who are comfortable with the concept of not having a horse shod all the time…but stay away from extremists of ALL sorts.

And listen to the horse. They will give you better advice than all the BB posters in the world…

[Wirt]

“You know, I’m not sure why farriers get so defensive about the barefoot craze. A farrier can make alot more $$ trimming than shoeing, time-wise. And I predict that in 100 years the idea of nailing metal shoes to a horse’s feet will be looked on as primitive and cruel.”

These kind of statements are exactly why farrier are defensive. Because there is nothing cruel or primitive about an nailing on an iron shoe. But once this ideas gets in someones head, it is echoed around amateur and backyard horse owners, and first time horse owners, until it is believed as absolute fact.
Primitive? Farrier work is an old world skill, that is true. It is one of the only trades these days that is still done with hand tools, and hand made tools. It is a craft. It takes study. In a world where people are dismayed with everything authentic turning to plastic, and mass produced, I find it ironic, that to go barefoot, one must rely on manufacturing technology, marketing, and profits. You take a hand made product and eliminate that. Because the common statement among riding barefoot fans is that you are going to need a boot. An we just can’t wait until boot technology and glues, etc. gets better. So you are transferring individual technical skills and craft to “technology” . You actually suggest a smart farrier should go where the money is. Which also implies that those “barefoot trimmers” that are popping up everywhere are in it for the money. Yeah, I’m stupid. I only get about forty bucks for a trim, but if I called myself a barefoot trimmer I could get twice that. Do I really want to take advantage of suckers?
No, I am not pleased to look in the future and see where yet another old art has been eliminated, because of so called modernization, and populas ideas with no foundation in fact.
Let me further say to someone saying our first job is the care of the feet. That is true, and we should do no harm. But a shoer’s job is to ensure that a horse that is being used and ridden now can be used and ridden now, not two months from now, not next week, but today. This is what people who are serious about riding want.
Any system has its failures. There is no zero tolerance that can be applied to a complex system like a horse’s foot and his environment. What studies show the percentage of failures that exist in iron shoes, that can even be attributed to the iron or the nails, in relation to long term soundness, versus studies that show the percentage of failures due to riding barefoot, given the same type of horses, the same kind of riding, the same footing, the same living conditions. Its practically impossible.
I realize I am not going to change anyone’s here. No one cares. But these discussions need some balance and dissent. Otherwise, everyone is just a bobble head.

[Kyzteke]

Ah, but Wirt – Times Change. People (smart people that is) need to change with them. The job of farrier will remain, because plenty of people (including myself) will never want to trim their own horses. And, as science progresses, we will learn even more. Why not embrace those changes? Because I guarantee they are coming and quicker than we realize.

Not sure of your age, but I’ve told my farrier (who thinks much like you) that when he is old and in his dotage, I will long be dead. And he will look around at what the job of a ‘farrier’ has become and think to himself “damn, that old bat was right…”

PS and if you (and others) will read my post carefully Wirt, I say “IN 100 YEARS…” All one has to do is read their history and see how radically things change…ideas, prejudices, even the idea of what is right & wrong. “Facts” generally accepted as “Truth” have altered radically over the centuries.
Example: (at the risk of setting myself up): one of the big thinkers of Greece (I believe it was Aristotle, but it might have been Plato), stated that “neither dogs nor woman have souls…” And he was generally accepted to be correct.

Try getting people behind THAT statement these days…

And we won’t even discuss stuff like the world being flat, taking blood o/o someone made them healthy and the color of someone’s skin made a difference in their intelligence or even their “rights” as people. We think this stuff as laughably ignorant NOW, but these were generally accepted beliefs during their times.

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7257631]

These kind of statements are exactly why farrier are defensive. Because there is nothing cruel or primitive about an nailing on an iron shoe. But once this ideas gets in someones head, it is echoed around amateur and backyard horse owners, and first time horse owners, until it is believed as absolute fact.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Thank you.

[quietann]

Wirt, thank you.

I have a young acquaintance who does excellent blacksmith work in the artistic realm. Needless to say, he’s been a bit of a “starving artist” for the past few years, so I asked him about training to be a farrier on the side. He’s not really interested in horses, that much, but he also knows enough horse people to think that horse shoes will soon be a thing of the past.

I meantime watch my farrier work and am amazed at the depth of his knowledge. He isn’t one to push shoes, and he can do a nice barefoot trim, but gets more and more work putting shoes on horses as the older farriers retire. I’m especially fascinated by hot shoeing and how it really helps him fit the shoes to my mare’s hooves… and how he’s able to point out all the little asymmetries in her hooves, yet reassure me that horse hooves are as individual as human feet. I’d be sad to see his level of craftsmanship replaced by technology.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7257699]
Ah, but Wirt – Times Change. People (smart people that is) need to change with them. The job of farrier will remain, because plenty of people (including myself) will never want to trim their own horses. And, as science progresses, we will learn even more. Why not embrace those changes? Because I guarantee they are coming and quicker than we realize.

Not sure of your age, but I’ve told my farrier (who thinks much like you) that when he is old and in his dotage, I will long be dead. And he will look around at what the job of a ‘farrier’ has become and think to himself “damn, that old bat was right…”[/QUOTE]

Change with the times, or give up critical thinking? Just go with what the majority of popular beliefs are, regardless of their validity? Don’t think for yourself. Your statements imply the same story, if I read your post right.(or excuse me if I misrepresent your statements, as I read between the lines) As science progresses, right minded (smart people) people will eventually understand that iron shoes and nails are cruel and barbaric, and the truth will prevail. I understand that you are committed to your belief, and the only possible outcome you foresee is that you will be proven right.
And as a point of fact, a trimmer is not a farrier. Farrier involves forging and bending and nailing of iron shoes, and trimming. So in fact, when all the horses of the world will only be trimmed, and saved from such damnation as shoeing, the farrier will be a thing of the past. That is what I rally against.

[kande04]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7257631]
I find it ironic, that to go barefoot, one must rely on manufacturing technology, marketing, and profits. You take a hand made product and eliminate that.[/QUOTE]

Except a huge proportion of the shoes nailed on horses are manufactured, because frankly, hand made shoes, as interesting as they are, can’t even come close to the quality of manufactured ones unless someone is willing to pay a lot more for a farrier to make really nice shoes.

I’ve made shoes from bar stock under the guidance of a very skilled farrier, and while there’s a lot to appreciate about hand made shoes, the majority of them are no better than manufactured ones. And even those that are better are nailed on with manufactured nails.

Because the common statement among riding barefoot fans is that you are going to need a boot.

Not true, as anyone can condition a horse’s hoof so that it can go barefoot without boots as long as they’re willing to put the time in. But that’s what drives both the shoe and boot industries: convenience. The big advantage to boots, IMO, is that they’re diy, so no need to use them when the horse doesn’t need them.

I only get about forty bucks for a trim, but if I called myself a barefoot trimmer I could get twice that. Do I really want to take advantage of suckers?

A few barefoot trimmers try to convince the clueless that they’re magicians so their trims are worth more, but there are only so many suckers out there, and they only stay suckers until their first clue falls upon their head.

I suspect that there will be a demand for nailed on shoes long after you and I are dead and gone, because of the convenience.

Let me further say to someone saying our first job is the care of the feet. That is true, and we should do no harm. But a shoer’s job is to ensure that a horse that is being used and ridden now can be used and ridden now, not two months from now, not next week, but today. This is what people who are serious about riding want.

I think that’s what people who are serious about convenience want.

What I think is valuable about the whole barefoot thing, is that those horses who never did need shoes can now go barefoot without their poor clueless owners being brow beaten by the holier than thou. Not that the htt won’t find something else to brow beat the susceptible about, but at least if someone realizes that their horse doesn’t need shoes they now have the “official” word that it’s okay to leave him barefoot!

[kande04]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7257893]
Your statements imply the same story, if I read your post right.(or excuse me if I misrepresent your statements, as I read between the lines)[/QUOTE]

Critical thinkers do not read between the lines, because knocking down straw men is a waste of critical thinking skills.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7257893]
Change with the times, or give up critical thinking? Just go with what the majority of popular beliefs are, regardless of their validity? Don’t think for yourself. Your statements imply the same story, if I read your post right.(or excuse me if I misrepresent your statements, as I read between the lines) As science progresses, right minded (smart people) people will eventually understand that iron shoes and nails are cruel and barbaric, and the truth will prevail. I understand that you are committed to your belief, and the only possible outcome you foresee is that you will be proven right.
And as a point of fact, a trimmer is not a farrier. Farrier involves forging and bending and nailing of iron shoes, and trimming. So in fact, when all the horses of the world will only be trimmed, and saved from such damnation as shoeing, the farrier will be a thing of the past. That is what I rally against.[/QUOTE]

I think I am using both my critical thinking skills AND a knowledge of people/history to form my opinion of where the skill/art/job of the farrier/shoer/trimmer (care-taker of the equine hoof) will be IN 100 YEARS.

Things don’t stay the same. This is about the only “fact” that is proven by history. Many things used to be hand-made, and while I agree it’s unfortunate these various skills are being lost, it is what it is.

Remember, we are not talking about what’s good for the PERSON here, but what’s best for the HORSE.

Now, honestly – Just for the sake of argument: if someone told you today that there was a method that protected and served the health of a horse’s hoof and allowed them to do their job(s) WITHOUT nailing on a shoe are you seriously telling me you would discount it?

Why are you so positive that, after all these centuries, a metal nail-on shoe is the ONLY possible solution out there? IMHO that isn’t critical thinking at all…

BTW, just to make it clear, I have no issues putting shoes on any of my horses, but I also see how, between Science and Technology, hoof care knowledge is expanding and exploring other avenues. So hang me…

[Wirt]

“Why are you so positive that, after all these centuries, a metal nail-on shoe is the ONLY possible solution out there? IMHO that isn’t critical thinking at all…”

After all theses centuries, it has proven to work quite well. There is nothing yet out there that compares to it yet. Why fix something if it ain’t broke?

“Remember, we are not talking about what’s good for the PERSON here, but what’s best for the HORSE.”

And your implication is that metal shoes are not good for the horse. Many have an agenda and put a lot of effort into trying to prove that nailing on iron shoes is actually harmful, all things considered. There is a determination to prove that there must be something better. There is not one study out there that has successfully proven that iron on the bottom of the feet and nails in the hoof of a healthy horse does any harm.
As to science and technology, I do not put those things in capital letters, as you do.
I will say that I do believe in choices. There are all kinds of innovative composite shoes that must be glued on, and there are many applications where those are warranted. They are also very expensive. But that is usually when there is some aberrant pathology that indicates something different. But it is a mistake to want to replace the standard of an industry based on the treatment of lamenesses and leg problems that have nothing to do with being caused by iron shoes.

“Now, honestly – Just for the sake of argument: if someone told you today that there was a method that protected and served the health of a horse’s hoof and allowed them to do their job(s) WITHOUT nailing on a shoe are you seriously telling me you would discount it?”

You have a problem with nails. I don’t. There are all ready glue ons. Also expensive. I will believe it when I see it.

[LarkspurCO]

I have to laugh at the notion that nail-on shoes will become obsolete simply because of the passage of 100 years. Hundreds of years have already passed since shoes were first nailed on a horse. Some practices stand the test of time because they are effective and affordable solutions.

As for some of Kande04’s assertion, I have to assume that her horseshoeing skills were lacking. Otherwise why would she claim that shoes are bad for the horse? What she probably meant was “bad shoeing is bad for the horse.” 'Nuff said.

[gypsymare]

100 years? I doubt it. Seeing as nailed on horseshoes have been used for the past 1500 years, 100 years is a drop in the bucket.

I am Pro-whatever.the.hell.the.horse.needs. I have 3 horses in various states of footwear. One fully shod and studded, one with fronts which are getting pulled this week and one completely barefoot. The last has also been in full shoes, front shoes and bare with boots. They get what they need to perform to the level required. This changes depending on climate, environment, season, workload and footing.

Environment and climate have an enormous impact on hoof health. One of my horses has lived in PA, MD, FL, NV, NM, and MO with me. Of all the places we lived, Nevada was by far the best. You couldn’t get a knife into her sole there. The desert turned her feet into little rocks. Those same healthy, rock crushing feet turned to splitting, thrush ridden wearing-to-nubs hooves in Missouri.

A good shoe job should not damage hoof health at all. It should not restrict the expansion of the hoof. It should allow for proper break over and heel support.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7257893]
Change with the times, or give up critical thinking? Just go with what the majority of popular beliefs are, regardless of their validity? Don’t think for yourself. Your statements imply the same story, if I read your post right.(or excuse me if I misrepresent your statements, as I read between the lines) As science progresses, right minded (smart people) people will eventually understand that iron shoes and nails are cruel and barbaric, and the truth will prevail. I understand that you are committed to your belief, and the only possible outcome you foresee is that you will be proven right.
And as a point of fact, a trimmer is not a farrier. Farrier involves forging and bending and nailing of iron shoes, and trimming. So in fact, when all the horses of the world will only be trimmed, and saved from such damnation as shoeing, the farrier will be a thing of the past. That is what I rally against.[/QUOTE]

Oh brother. Paranoia will destroy ya.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=gypsymare;7258412]
100 years? I doubt it. Seeing as nailed on horseshoes have been used for the past 1500 years, 100 years is a drop in the bucket.

I am Pro-whatever.the.hell.the.horse.needs. I have 3 horses in various states of footwear. One fully shod and studded, one with fronts which are getting pulled this week and one completely barefoot. The last has also been in full shoes, front shoes and bare with boots. They get what they need to perform to the level required. This changes depending on climate, environment, season, workload and footing.

Environment and climate have an enormous impact on hoof health. One of my horses has lived in PA, MD, FL, NV, NM, and MO with me. Of all the places we lived, Nevada was by far the best. You couldn’t get a knife into her sole there. The desert turned her feet into little rocks. Those same healthy, rock crushing feet turned to splitting, thrush ridden wearing-to-nubs hooves in Missouri.

A good shoe job should not damage hoof health at all. It should not restrict the expansion of the hoof. It should allow for proper break over and heel support.[/QUOTE]

That is the most rational post in this entire thread.
One of the biggest myths out there is that shoeing restricts the expansion of the hoof, causing contracted heels, etc.

[JB]

The speed at which technology improves has been accelerating for decades. I think it is not out of the question to think that traditional metal shoes could be obsolete in 50 or 100 years