And you pull the shoes and he will no longer be sound. IMO this is really not a sound horse. He only seems sound with shoes on.
That’s like saying humans aren’t adapted to live in North America unless they wear clothes. Your point?
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3954218]
Considering all Ts are crossed and Is are dotted, your horse does sound like a candidate for shoeing. But, PLEASE hire a trained and certified farrier to do it, and not a trimmer with 1 day of training nailing on shoes to one horse. Would you ask your family doctor to extract your impacted wisdom tooth? Or your dentist to treat a failing kidney? Different professionals for different tasks. Shoeing is an art and a science. 
Nuff said - you get the point.[/QUOTE]
Now that is funny… thanks Ace for the laugh.
[QUOTE=BornToRide;3954412]
And you pull the shoes and he will no longer be sound. IMO this is really not a sound horse. He only seems sound with shoes on.
It is like one of my former clients who put shoes back on her chronically laminitic mare . She was chronically laminitic from eating low levels of bracken fern.[/QUOTE]
Oh my god, you guys are too fricking much :rolleyes:
Leah:
I don’t jump from trim to trim to trim trying to find the “right” answer. I learn from everyone, I study from everyone and then apply what works and leave behind what doesn’t. I HAVE tried many different trims on Finn, I just haven’t taken the time or the energy to share the monthly photos that I have been taking since 2002.
I don’t jump from diet suggestion to diet suggestion. I’m actually quite methodical in trying one thing at a time to see what actually makes a difference.
Ute:
Thin soles also can come from chronic inflammation. When you people have lived with a horse like I have, or what Marta has or maybe what tpup is, then you can begin to have a intelligent conversation. Ute, you have absolutely no, none, zip nada, zilch TENURE in working on long term pathological hooves. Going and pulling a few shoes on horses with crap trims and crappy farrier work does not an expert make.
Leah, I respect you and have known you for a long time, don’t take the following question as being nasty? I’m trying to establish a base line. How many horses are you trimming on a weekly basis? How many healthy and unhealthy hooves do you work on in a month?
My goal isn’t to shoe lame horses, my goal is to provide The Horse in front of me that day with what that horse best needs to be happy and healthy… Whole Horse Health.
BorntoRide and a few others here haven’t hit their wall yet, if they don’t then they are not trimming enough horses. Kinda like, if you don’t fall off a horse ever you aren’t riding much.
I know Finnegan, better than I’ve ever known anyone or any animal. I know when he is not feeling well even when I’m across the country in California. I know what he likes, when he likes it and when he doesn’t.
I would never hurt this horse. The shoes on Finn have turned his life around. Feel free any of you to fly or drive here, I’ll give you a room to sleep in, I live on a gorgeous farm, you’ll enjoy yourself.
Then watch what I do with Finn and you can tell me “what” or “if” you think somethings wrong.
Murray, another case, diet is his issue. Owner refuses to limit grass and refuses to put on a muzzle. So I’m doing the best I can for this horse and giving his soles the relief he needs.
I’m hoping my experiments means in another 4 months Finn goes bare and I mean really bare, not with boots forever. Murray, well I plan on keeping his as happy as I can during founder season.
I’ve studied the Epona’s, just got a case study from Monique the inventor. Horse shod without a break for past 6 years with Eponas/IM. I see no difference as if she had been bare. To me that is a win/win situation.
[edit]
I’ll put up pix over on horseshoes.com of the trails I was cooking thru today. On my sound horse BTW.
Holy Smokes, I totally understand the frustration with the BUA, it’s my darn punishment. :yes:
Kim
[QUOTE=tpup;3954586]
Thanks everyone - what about glue-ons?
I agree I don’t think the Perfect Hoof Wear would be practical…having them last 3-4 weeks only just isn’t cost effect and it doesn’t make sense.[/QUOTE]
Tpup:
Where do you live? You don’t have to give exact location, I’m asking more about your terrain.
Glue On’s are a B**ch to get to stay on. I got some good tips about using a heating pad and warming the Epona’s from Monique. So now in the latest reset I used the glue and way less nails.
I’m going to put hinds on in the next few days I’ll do the same.
I think it depends on how mucky your terrain and what type of riding.
Kim
what’s that they say about not throwing rocks if you live in glass houses?
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3954218]
But, PLEASE hire a trained and certified farrier to do it, and not a trimmer with 1 day of training nailing on shoes to one horse. Would you ask your family doctor to extract your impacted wisdom tooth? Or your dentist to treat a failing kidney? Different professionals for different tasks. Shoeing is an art and a science. Nuff said - you get the point.[/QUOTE]
i guess it’s good you recognize your own limitations…
“You people” HAVE lived with a horse like that. My dressage horse was chronically thin soled, sore, relied on 300 dollar shoeing packages to be ridden, abscesses, WLD, you name it. For 10 years. With never any lasting resolution. UP until the mare’s untimely death. “You people” also owned two chronically sore, thin soled TBs. “You people” now owns a chornically thin soled horse (daughter of dressage horse) who could not walk from stall to pasture without shoes. Doing fine now but diet and trim were completely revamped. Believe me Kim, “you people” HAS lived it, and that is why “you people” is now in this business.
I have an endurance horse Kim, I ride over lots of “bad” terrain. I ride a lot too. I’ve been critized by some here for riding too much. We don’t suggest things because we’re jealous newbies sitting behind a computer screen. We suggest things because we HAVE lived it and have first hand experience.
When Libbey is doing really good, she can be ridden for 8 miles on the flat, in boots with pads. You can barely hold her back! She’s out in front of the other horses motoring along with a huge overstep and swinging back. Does that mean the horse is 100%, no problem in the world? Of course not. She’s a chronic founder and nothing will ever change that. But it does mean that the tools being used, the diet, and the terrain are conducive to a nice short trail ride in comfort. Take that same horse to the mountains, take the boots away, and you won’t make it 5 minutes out of base camp. Soundness is subjective - it’s not either all or nothing, 10 or 0, yay or nay. The horse can be sound for the intended purpose but still score a lameness on the Obel Grade scale.
You do what the horse can do to still be comfortable but get some exercise too. You are using Eponas, and the horse can trail ride in them. Great. But that doesn’t mean that your horse’s problems are “fixed.” It means you found a tool that makes the horse more comfortable for trail riding. That’s all it means. Boots don’t fix Libbey’s problem, and Epona’s don’t fix Finn’s problems. They both alleviate symptoms, which is excellent, but underneath it all, there is STILL something amiss. Denise pointed out that your trim is a big problem, and I agree. Somebody pointed out to me that my trim was a problem for Libbey, and I agreed. Instead of stomping off in a piss fit, I took the advice to heart and changed the trim, and the horse got exponentially better. You have to be willing to listen to CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM or you’ll crash and burn (or the horses will.)
What is the point of having an online network of professionals such as here, or at horseshoes.com, or other boards, if you don’t listen to the constructive criticism and use it to improve?
You’re right I recognize my limitations. I’m not about to trapse around the country side nailing on shoes when I’ve had 1 day of training and have been shoeing for about 5 weeks. Too bad I can’t say the same for others.
I would consider graduation from some type of shoeing program, and 3-6 months of full time apprenticeship absolutely necessary before calling myself a farrier and taking on shoeing clients. Not one day. But that’s just me. Experimenting on your own horses is one thing - shoeing for the general public is quite another.
I have no problem with shoeing. Shoeing without the proper education, yeah that’s a problem.
[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3955062]
“You people” HAVE lived with a horse like that. My dressage horse was chronically thin soled, sore, relied on 300 dollar shoeing packages to be ridden, abscesses, WLD, you name it. For 10 years. With never any lasting resolution. UP until the mare’s untimely death. “You people” also owned two chronically sore, thin soled TBs. “You people” now owns a chornically thin soled horse (daughter of dressage horse) who could not walk from stall to pasture without shoes. Believe me Kim, “you people” HAS lived it, and that is why “you people” is now in this business. ;)[/QUOTE]
Well, if you got them fixed with diet and some decent trimming then I’ll still stand by my statement!
You HAVE not lived with a horse like Finnegan, or Kipper, or my friends horse Bud. Hows that for presuming.
Kim
A2
you apparently hold the magic solution to making thin soled horses sound barefoot we all can only hope that some day we will reach your level of enlightenment.
Last fall we pulled the shoes on my wife’s mare and she never took a lame step (even being lightly worked; she’s too pregnant now to work).
This week we put shoes on a gelding and our stallion 'cause they’re gonna start serious work. Neither ever took a lame step.
If you pull the shoes and your horse is lame then you have a problem. The idea of “transition to barefoot” is just bunk. The idea that you “transition to shoes” is equally bunk. Anytime a horse walks off from the farrier (or trimmer) lamer than when it got there the foot care pro screwed up. Just how they did it will have to be judged on a case by case basis.
Every farrier we’ve ever had that was worth his salt agreed that the art of the farrier begins with the trim and the trim gets protected by a shoe. You can use the trim and/or a shoe to alter a horse’s way of going (usually for cosmetic reasons) but that’s a separate issue.
With respect to the decent trimmers/farriers out there, this ain’t “rocket science.” Don’t make it harder than it is.
G.
I had shoes put back on my older Tb. after having him barefoot for a year. He was never comfortable or sound barefoot, not even with boots and pads. The vet said his soles were extremely thin. His toes were chronically long and heels underrun- they were getting better with frequent trimming, but even though they were looking better, he was very unhappy and sore. I did not feel that diet was a problem as he does not eat grain or grass. It definitely looked like his feet were improving appearance wise, so a part of me wanted to “stick it out” but after I had him shod, he was instantly better and back to his happy, energetic self. I feel bad for making him uncomfortable for so long.
My farrier is using the Natural Balance shoes. His feet dont look textbook perfect, I am sure he will always have the underrun heel, but I try not to make myself worry. He is sound and happy and at age 19, he deserves it and I’d like to ride him for the next few years as long as I can. I know many older horses who have been shod lifelong and still going strong so I hope he will be one of them!
Since you are insinuating, lets clear it all up Ace is talking about me. And yet again making presumptions. I have a few more years on you in the hoofcare world. I have more than 1 day of shoeing by more than 1 farrier. Horse has been in shoes for 9 weeks. More than enough time, it is not rocket science, I will get better and will not stop learning til the day I die.
You go ahead and let others do the work for you Vickey… I’ll forge ahead (every pun intended).
Now enough tit for tat with the children, I have to go feed horses.
Thanks Marta, are you scared to let me come down and slap some shoe on Ms. Kipper now?
Kim
Not going to wade into the barefoot vs. non insanity, but to answer a specific question about glue-ons…
Throughout the past 3-4 years, Shane has had glue ons applied at different times by different people. He had them put on by the farrier at New Bolton (Sigafoo type shoes, with a sleeve, though I couldn’t say if they were actually that brand), a second farrier (did use Sigafoos), and a third farrier (uses a different kind, no sleeve, much thicker, yellower glue). Shane did throw the Sigafoos pretty reliably but (knock on wood) has had little to NO problem with the non-sleeve type. They LAST and once or twice my very strong vet has had to remove them to take X-rays and he STRUGGLED. Those puppies are ON THERE.
So I think the type of glue/shoe matters tremendously. The Sigafood types were peeling and loosening after 2-3 weeks of wear. The type he wears now are ROCK SOLID when 4 weeks rolls around and the farrier has to remove them, they aren’t a bit loosened.
If it’s helpful, I can ask the farrier what brand/style they are.
LOL!
[QUOTE=irishcas;3955093]
Thanks Marta, are you scared to let me come down and slap some shoe on Ms. Kipper now?
Kim[/QUOTE]
the reality is, that most of the farriers out there who have gone through the farrier programs did not even get a fraction of education on hoof anatomy that kim has acquired in the years she’s been trimming. she’s driven, always learning and not afraid to re-evaluate her position if experience dictates so. and when i refer to her experience and education, i’m not talking about her time spent bragging on the public forums…
so without any hesitation i turn my mare’s hoof care over to kim 
Whew…this always goes into debate. Back to my story, I am considering aluminum shoes with Sole Guard. My riding teacher just talked to her farrier about it and I am considering using him.
Saratoga, thank you for your story. My guy is around 19 too and I just want him to be comfortable and happy.
As for my area, I am in Virginia. We get dry, hot summers. Our ring is quite rocky at times - moving isn’t an option for me right now. I have nice, grassy fields to ride in (he’s pretty happy in those!). Trails are combo of wooded, packed in dirt, can have sticks, tree branches and rocks in places. Often grassy on the sides which is where he often prefers to walk. I use Easyboots on trails when it is very hard and dry. I have also used them in our ring.
Hey Now! just who is it your calling “You People”? YOU PEOPLE are You People:lol:
George
Sounds good tpup
George
Every horse owner does their research and settles on a farrier or trimmer that they are comfortable with. As a horseowner, I would not allow a trimmer who has had one day of shoeing training nail shoes on my horse. But that’s just me. It’s not rocket science but it does require adequate training and apprenticeship to learn how to do it correctly.
tpup, I tried the sole guard first, wish I had tried something a little softer. Sole Guard hardens to a very “stiff” support, used on a horse much like yours. I left Sole Guard in only about 6 days, as he was moving very “stuffy”. 8 weeks later I found much bruising over the entire sole, very thin layer that trimmed out easily, but proved there was definitely too much pressure over a brief period. One of the other Vettec products might be more appropriate for the first cycle or two…
My mare was most comfortable with impression material under a hard plastic pad that did not deform and press into the sole so much on rocks. Leather pads weren’t a good option for her. I’ve used EquiPak C/S and it got extremely hard - like concrete - after a couple of weeks. The horse went dead lame, unable to walk there was so much pressure. The problem we had with the pads though was the soft crumbling soles. On my horses, padding led to a vicious cycle of - the more you protected them, the thinner and softer they got - to the point of god help us if the horse threw a shoe. And we ran the gammut with bruising and abscessing from too much pressure from different packing types, or packing that shifted, or got a rock wedged under the pad and so forth. Then white line disease and so many broken out nail holes that you couldn’t nail a shoe on anymore. The pads were holding in so much moisture, but then we live in a wetter climate than some areas are. I just don’t ever want to how that row again.
Have you tried Durasole tpup? I’m not crazy about the idea of how it works, but it sounds like your horse would benefit from it.
