Dear Norval,
Once you are done with 24 (MEN!) please look here
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y17…arydescent.jpg. I would like your opinion.
PS I will need to go watch House in a bit but will be back.
Re: that picture. Wow. That is more forward than I was imagining!
Shadow - is that how forward you mean when you say forward? I’ve never seen that style before.
Shadow,
You’re just digging your hole deeper as far as I’m concerned. Excerpting lines out of context from a book is a fun tactic. For example, the bible says ‘there is no god’ right there in Proverbs. Those four words, right next to each other. If you go look it up, you will see the sentence is exactly the opposite from what you might presume from the above phrase.
By the way, I first learned how to properly negotiate steep (as in, greater than 30 degree slopes) in France. Schooling horses for eventing. With a graduate of Saumur (as in, French Cavalry).
Always a treat to watch that Man from Snowy River, here ya go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZBXLYJwgt4
Since you seem to have skipped my last post, let me pose the thought again: You describe, to launch your thread, the One True Way to negotiate steep hills. You later say that you’ve managed to flip a horse backwards going down a steep hill. Does that not suggest that your approach is flawed (to say the least?). In my 50+ years of riding, you are the very first person of ANY riding level that I’ve seen or heard tell about that has managed to flip a horse backwards going downhill.
So far I don’t see any other posters who seem disposed to take your advice. Smart people. Maybe it’s time you gave it a rest.
Twofatponies, yes, you have it exactly right. And that position is, by the way, a forward position in terms of support for the horse and the ability to help him maintain balance if need be. Unfortunately Shadow does not seem to have ever been taught the principles of forward riding- which do NOT always mean ‘lean forward.’
Shadow- the only problem with your practice of loading the front end, is that when, and eventually it will, the front end moves, the extra weight over it will prevent the horse from moving forward in a way in which the horse can then find its next ‘step’. You are literally forcing the horse to jam its legs into the ground. If that front end gives out there is no way for the horse to balance itself with that extra weight on it.
As with everyone else here (and at some point you have to kind of give history its dues, if folks have been riding down hill by leaning backwards for a couple thousand years, there’s probably a darn good reason for it) I weight the back end for stability and lighten the front end for balance.
[QUOTE=Shadow14;3953064]
The eventers already know to lean forward on the down slopes. That is in their manuals. As for severe spurs I wear a simple nub dessage spur myself.
Why does it bother you that I once ran a post on the arabs using severe spurs??? Why does it bother you that I wear dressage spurs with a single blunt prong??? Maybe you should tell the dessage people that spurs are a no no… I also ride in a simple snaffle bit but recommended for some people with less experience to use a more severe bit???[/QUOTE]
See that part where is says edit? Your answer would be in there. But the Mods said play nice.
Do you understand what a question mark means??? Its means you have a question, not an answer or a statement. I am not sure you understand that so I wont answer.
I was not aware there was an manual for Eventers. Is that the Official Manual for Eventers? Or do you simply have a book that has some information by the person who wrote it about how they approach a hill?
I would never ever go down a steep hill in any position but “Man from Snowy River” When going down hill on a slope at speed I would stay in 2 point and bridge my reins and do nothing at all but keep going. But a STEEP hill that is slippery of has loose footing? Maintain a position as if there were no hill and get off the horses back and let it alone. Not get off the saddle, but lighten your seat and let the horse use its back, hind end, shoulders, front legs or whatever it wants because I am on it and I cannot hold it up. I can just interfere and get in the way.
That said, if it were really a Man from Snowy River Hill of great danger and unpredictable footing I would just get the heck off and let the horse walk down it without having to worry about where I am. I would also place my trails in some other, safer position.
Why would I even go down a very steep slippery slope on a pleasure ride? I might apply some brain power and take another trail that day. Its not like I am delivering the mail via pony express.
I am amazed the constant stream of solutions for problems that can be non-issues. But in general it was a drive by posting and I take my own advice and just avoid certain posters.
To me there’s a big difference between a “forward seat” and “leaning forward.”
Forward seat = remaining over the horse’s center of balance, with the angle of the upper body depending upon the speed and orientation of the horse
Leaning forward = putting your center of balance in front of the horse’s center of balance
Prudence, I wonder whether the horse/rider in your profile pic were using the slope as a take-off point for jumping. Just curious, because I found a pic with the rider with a similar angle and the description was that they were jumping from the slope:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j115/jovianrider/Bankedjump.jpg
Here’s a picture demonstrating the “Man from Snow River” position as the “textbook” position, circa 1902:
http://s78.photobucket.com/albums/j115/jovianrider/?action=view¤t=Steep.jpg
Which is why I initially opened this thread to read it. I noticed a question regarding steep hills and was curious as to the feedback recieved. Imagine the shock upon reading the OP’s statement to his own question:D
Not to mention finding the statement to be incorrect in terms of safety and technique.
yep:yes: that makes two of us!
OK, I love that scene from “Man From Snowy River” as much as the next guy – I’ve watched it a million times and it always brings a tear to my eye (I have a soft spot for buckskins…), but this discussion makes me wonder if there wasn’t some Hollywood fakery in that scene.
Why do I (suddenly) think that? Well, in the film the rider is tilted way back, like the riders in some of the photos people have posted. But the HORSE is in full throttle forward, barely using his hind end…UNLIKE the photos of the other horses going down this steep a hill. I can see this happening in a rather short run of steepness, but a long, steep drop? Wouldn’t the horse start sort of a “slide” when it was going at this speed? In other words, start to sit more on his hindquarters so he doesn’t tumble a$$ over teakettle?
I’ve never ridden a slope this steep and probably never will, but I HAVE noticed that most of the jumpers doing steep bank jumps sit square in the “middle” of the horse…not sure I’m explaining it quite right, but if you suddenly put them on flat land, they would be totally perpendicular to that horizon…if that makes sense.
It makes NO sense to load the front end…it’s already loaded enough!
[QUOTE=equinelaw;3953276]
Why would I even go down a very steep slippery slope on a pleasure ride? I might apply some brain power and take another trail that day. Its not like I am delivering the mail via pony express.
I am amazed the constant stream of solutions for problems that can be non-issues. But in general it was a drive by posting and I take my own advice and just avoid certain posters.[/QUOTE]
Maybe it is the only way to get to a isolated spot. Maybe the best trails are down in that swamp and the only way down is over a steep bank and once down the trails are beautiful. Maybe sticking to the high trail in winter means deep wind driven snow and all I need to do is get down that bank to find protection from both.
I created this trail for just those reasons and yes the first 50 feet or so is terrifying but once down it is beautiful down there. I have negotiated that bank 100’s maybe a 1000 times without incident and have learned how to take those slippery slops without a problem.
If you want to avoid my post then please put me on you ignore list.
I feel I have a right to relate my experience which is considerable, over 51 years in all sorts of situations. And yes I will push a situation.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;3953829]
OK, I love that scene from “Man From Snowy River” as much as the next guy – I’ve watched it a million times and it always brings a tear to my eye (I have a soft spot for buckskins…), but this discussion makes me wonder if there wasn’t some Hollywood fakery in that scene.
It makes NO sense to load the front end…it’s already loaded enough![/QUOTE]
I watched both “Man from Snowy river” and return to Snowy river about a week ago and it was so sad when his little buckskin was killed.
And yes all that ride has to be fake. Running Dan up that hill at full speed would have killed him alone not to mention the constant flat out running.
But it did make for a good show.
You mentioned that you have never done really steep slopes like that but if you do and the horse starts to slide on his hind end you will find that shifting your weight forward over the front end stablizes the horse and helps slow the hind end slide down.
I have experimented doing it both ways, leaning back and leaning forward on grease slick slopes and find from experience that leaning forward slows the descent and stablizes the horse.
[QUOTE=Leather;3953573]
To me there’s a big difference between a “forward seat” and “leaning forward.”
Forward seat = remaining over the horse’s center of balance, with the angle of the upper body depending upon the speed and orientation of the horse
Leaning forward = putting your center of balance in front of the horse’s center of balance
Prudence, I wonder whether the horse/rider in your profile pic were using the slope as a take-off point for jumping. Just curious, because I found a pic with the rider with a similar angle and the description was that they were jumping from the slope:
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j115/jovianrider/Bankedjump.jpg
Here’s a picture demonstrating the “Man from Snow River” position as the “textbook” position, circa 1902:
http://s78.photobucket.com/albums/j115/jovianrider/?action=view¤t=Steep.jpg[/QUOTE]
When you are cantering across country you are in a forward seat, leaning forward. When you start down a steep hill if you foze in that position you would be leaning forward over the horse. The combination of steep slope and you forward seat would put you in a forward postion.
As for aligning you body with the trees, trees grow straight up. If the slope is steep the trees still grow staight up so if you are going down and you keep you body aligned with the trees you are leaning back and if the slope is 30 degrees you are thus leaning 30 degrees back.
[QUOTE=JackSprats Mom;3953261]
Shadow- the only problem with your practice of loading the front end, is that when, and eventually it will, the front end moves, the extra weight over it will prevent the horse from moving forward in a way in which the horse can then find its next ‘step’. You are literally forcing the horse to jam its legs into the ground. If that front end gives out there is no way for the horse to balance itself with that extra weight on it.
As with everyone else here (and at some point you have to kind of give history its dues, if folks have been riding down hill by leaning backwards for a couple thousand years, there’s probably a darn good reason for it) I weight the back end for stability and lighten the front end for balance.[/QUOTE]
I was always taught to lean back going down hill and lean forward going up hill and it seems to work fine. At the time being young and aggressive I put my horse over everything, I rode jumpers in my younger years and put them over steep banks, sand banks, swam rivers , you name it I tried it. I even would jump the 4 foot chain link fences around the baseball diamond in the snow. It never worried about anything but I learned the hard way that sliding a horse down a steep bank and once a good slide got started you could not stop it and yes 2 times I wiped out. Getting older I started to experiment, read a few books I still own on eventing and learned from the eventing books and experience that I should be leaning forward both up and down hills.
I tried it 100’s or thousands of times and when the going gets really tough like spring and fall, rainy days that slick hills are negotiated better by leaning forward, not back and if the horse starts to slide then lean even further forward.
This is from my books on eventing and from experience.
Is it wrong to share experience???
[QUOTE=katarine;3952007]
Shadow, you should report it if you honestly think it is not a fair assessment of how you function on this board. Insulting women, anyone younger than you, and more broadly ANYONE who does ANYTHING counter to your way. You start threads so people can agree with you, or get called stupid/ovarily-challenged/less experienced/ignorant, etc etc etc.
.[/QUOTE]
Tell us about your experience katarine. So far you have done nothing but list the things you don’t like about me. If you have nothing to add to the discussion why don’t you just butt out.
[QUOTE=GallopingGrape;3952484]
Twofatponies, I was taught the same. Not to lean forward or back, (going up or down hills) but remain perpendicular with the trees… sitting straight and low in your seat down hills, and straight and light in your seat uphills.[/QUOTE]
Trees don’t grow perpendicular to the slope. They grow straight up. So if the slope is say 45 degrees the trees are 45 degrees to the slope . So if you stayed parallel to the growing trees while going down you would be leaning 45 degrees backwards??? Is this right???
[QUOTE=Moderator 1;3952769
That being said, this IS a discussion forum. If someone chooses to give their advice, those comments are fodder for
discussion.
That doesn’t mean you have to agree with each other, but it does mean that other people can provide their perspective and experiences, and an interactive conversation ensues where the differences in opinion or misperceptions are analyzed and…discussed. 
So, back to those slippery slopes…
Thanks!
Mod 1[/QUOTE]
This is a discussion. I am providing my experience and while you don’t have to agree with me some don’t have to get insulting.
Spurs are not part of this discussion.
For my side I present experience and a text book. So far no one agrees with me, that is your right but keep it civil.
Look on the bright side, this section has been very boring lately, little activity and it sure has picked up by the number of posts.:)
[QUOTE=prudence;3953128]
Dear Norval,
Once you are done with 24 (MEN!) please look at the scanned picture I put on my profile. I would like your opinion.
PS I will need to go watch House in a bit but will be back.[/QUOTE]
After 24 came Castle and I like that show, new but it caught my attention.
Yes I agree with your picture. If you are actually on that horse it feels like you are falling forward but yes, a forward seat. I have another in my eventing book and it shows the rider even further forward and they recommend if needed to lean on the base of the neck.
Againd Purdence I agree with that picture and while it is perpendicular to the slope
[QUOTE=Beverley;3953183]
Shadow,
Since you seem to have skipped my last post, let me pose the thought again: You describe, to launch your thread, the One True Way to negotiate steep hills. You later say that you’ve managed to flip a horse backwards going down a steep hill. Does that not suggest that your approach is flawed (to say the least?). In my 50+ years of riding, you are the very first person of ANY riding level that I’ve seen or heard tell about that has managed to flip a horse backwards going downhill.
.’[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry, I didn’t knw it was THE ONE TRUE WAY ?
I too have 50 plus years and yes I have managed to flip more then one horse over backwards, flipped them forward too. Rode broncs, jumped , drove horses and just about everything else but I learned things along the way, things that work for me.
I have knowingly gone over banks knowing I was not going to make it but went anyway, the snow was deep, really really deep and another time it was gorgous deep sand and both times we wiped out and both times we just got up, dusted ourselves off, remounted and continued on our way, no worst for the wear. At least I tried and through reading and experience I learned that forward works better for me. If the horse starts to loose it I lean further forward and it seems to stablize the horse more.
What is wrong with experimenting?? Take a steep rain slicked hill and try it both ways, lean back one trip and then trying doing it again leaning forward??
A simple exercise and see for yourself which feels better . If leaning back feels better for you and your horse then lean back but if leaning forward feels better then do it that way.
Living in Utah or a flat dessert doesn’t mean either on is more experienced then the other. Onario is relatively flat until you start wandering around and find deep holes with lakes 100’s of feet below the normal lay of the land.
A dessert can have a rain cut washout and negotiating down one of the sides can be tricky.
How far you lean forward is hard to judge since the slope cancels all your feeling for angle. A person might be sitting perfectly perpendicular to the horses back and when you drop over a lip you find yourself feeling like you are going over the horses head. I grip with my knees but find my body slides forward in the pommel of the saddle.
You take this so personal?? Did I insult you by starting this post on going down steep slopes?
[QUOTE=equinelaw;3953276]
I would never ever go down a steep hill in any position but “Man from Snowy River” When going down hill on a slope at speed I would stay in 2 point and bridge my reins and do nothing at all but keep going. But a STEEP hill that is slippery of has loose footing? Maintain a position as if there were no hill and get off the horses back and let it alone. Not get off the saddle, but lighten your seat and let the horse use its back, hind end, shoulders, front legs or whatever it wants because I am on it and I cannot hold it up. I can just interfere and get in the way.
.[/QUOTE]
You change you mind?? First you would never go down a hill in other then the Man form Snowy river and yet the next sentence you assume the forward postion.
Maintain a postion as if there was no hill?? Are we riding at a walk leaning back? Is that the position we are maintaining?? Trotting with a slight forward seat? Is that the position?? It seems you change your position to suit the slope. Well I do to and the original post was about doing a very steep slope, not a gentle slope that I could back up, or stand sideways on, but a steep slipery slope with head high walls of either side and about a 1 foot bathway where the water runs and at the same time frozen solid so the horse leaves no tracks and has no footing?? That is the original slope. Lean forward, stay perpenticular to the horse, hard to say with the steepness of the slope but lean back?? NO way.
[QUOTE=Shadow14;3953933]
I have knowingly gone over banks knowing I was not going to make it but went anyway, the snow was deep, really really deep and another time it was gorgous deep sand and both times we wiped out and both times we just got up, dusted ourselves off, remounted and continued on our way, no worst for the wear. [/QUOTE]
Now. I realize years of experiance teach you things.
But there is something about these lines that seriously concern me- I.E if you are riding and you know you aren’t going to make it… what part of your horse might break a leg/neck are you not recognizing.
I take everything on a board with a grain of salt, and I come here because well, I don’t like my job and I can pick up interesting things and meet folks whom I would never have and have discussion with people I would never have since I work around so many none horse folk.
But given that you are trying to give me (as a member of a board) advise but then tell me you make choices that are clearly dangerous (i.e. you KNOW you won’t make it) totally makes your ‘advise’ not really nearly as potent if you will.
I take chances and I’ve gone through rugged country and i’ve been in some very dangerous situations, I always rode with a pistol in case I needed to defend from wild dogs or shoot my horse, because if they broke a leg there was no rescue. Thats a fact, but that being known, I never purposely did something that I thought would break endanger myself. I lived in the high desert… running around like that is stupid, it could get you not only hurt but killed. If you wipe out and go down and break a leg, guess what… if you can’t get out your dead. You are going to starve to death then get eaten.
So while a discussion on going down hill is good… I think the fact that you are saying it is the be all end all of going down hill has shut the conversation down to further educational benefits.
That and personally I make it a point to never trust someone’s opinon when they make poor choices regarding their and their animals safety. So I’ll read and thats about it. Give me a reason to trust it and I might consider it next time around.
