Going down steep slippery hills??

Stay off that slope until its safe since you do not HAVE to ride down it.

You might have 50 years experience, but you might just be doing the same thing for 50 years. That is not 50 years of LEARNING experience.

I do applaud that you keep trying to educate yourself by reading books, but you seem to decide on a fact and then find a book to back it up. Since you use books from a spam of 100 years and my all sorts of people, its likely if you look hard enough you will find one that agrees with you.

The standard modern approach is to stay in the same position for a hill–not a steep sliding almost vertical drop, as you would for the flat but to bridge your reins, grab neck, do something to keep you from falling or sliding forward and get out of the horses way. If you are walking then you do not get into 2 point and assume a forward out of the saddle seat. if you are at speed you do for the same reasons you do it not on a hill.

But once the angle of the hill requires you to change your position in order not interfere with the horse then you must sit up, stay light and do you best to leave the horse alone so it can get down safely. Not load either end, not dump more weight on its forehand and not lean back hoping to change the laws of physics by imagining your weight has shifted to the horses rump because your head is near in.

The picture does not show the position for riding down a steep hill. The pictures shows the position for 1-2 strides down the hill and then a jump the rest of the way, so yes, a jumping position would be best. But you would not worry about footing our anything else since you would be airborne.

All other pictures and manuals of modern times say to keep yourself in the same position as the trees. You do NOT lean back. The horse goes down from underneath you in the front. It just looks like leaning back. Just like you do not duck down over jumps, but allow the horse to come up and meet you as you stay quiet and still in your 2 point position. It LOOKS like you have to duck down–but you don’t. The horse rises up to meet you.

But once again, when faced with a solid sheet of ice on a very very steep slope the correct answer is to apply some reason and go another way unless it was some matter of life or death. If you MUST go down, just get off. Because its not a movie and there are no special effects. Good horsemanship is not like stunt riding. Its planning and avoiding unnecessary risks and doing your best not to waste a Medi-vac teams time.

Just like in that clip from man from snowy river, the horses with no riders have no problem at all. They do not need your help. They need you to not hinder them in any way.

  1. and 2) are excellent truth in advertising, Shadow. Helps folks make an informed decision as to the validity of your advice.

  2. Ah. Now you are sharing ‘what works for you.’ That is a reasonable approach. Far different from the closing line in your original post, which reads:

“So if you ever worry about a deep descent remember me, lean forwards, plant the front feet and unload the hinds and you will be all right.
Guaranteed:D:D”

And, just to refresh your memory, THAT was the post to which I responded since it contains not just bad advice, but dangerous advice for some readers.

  1. Nothing at all wrong with experimenting, I don’t even care if the rider gets banged up though I would hate to see a good horse get banged up owing to rider stupidity.

  2. As I have ALREADY posted, Shadow, it’s nothing personal. As I have ALREADY posted, Shadow, when I see ANYONE posting what I feel is really bad advice, even downright dangerous in the case of your initial post, I will post in disagreement. Again, I recommend reading posts before responding with either a misquote of a previous post, or in this case, making a poster patiently repeat herself.

And I’ll just observe in parting that you still haven’t responded to my point: you don’t see a connection between your having a train wreck with your horse and the flawed approach you advocate to negotiating steep hills.

[QUOTE=Icecapade;3954087]
But given that you are trying to give me (as a member of a board) advise but then tell me you make choices that are clearly dangerous (i.e. you KNOW you won’t make it) totally makes your ‘advise’ not really nearly as potent if you will.

.[/QUOTE]

3 of us were out riding well after dark in the moon light and we came to this drop off. About 20 feet down but the crest of the hill was at least 10 feet further out then it should be. We all knew it was nothing but deep snow. I went first and sure enough Strider just dropped out from under me and down we went in a tangle. I wasn’t too concerned and neither was Strider. He just stood up, shock and I cleaned off the saddle. The next horse Champ just followed in my plowed out path and managed to keep his feet. The 3rd horse Orio just plowed through the same path.
sorry if I wasn’t afraid enough but I wasn’t. I knew the snow was deep and I was going to be swept off but it was all in fun.
In the past 51 years I have never destroyed a horse, broke his leg and other then a minor cut have not harmed one.
Trust me or not, it really doesn’t matter. I don’t have to carry a gun either.

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3953078]
This is not a normal situation. This horse tripped. Did not loose it’s footing because of the steepness of the grade but because it simple tripped. Leaning forward is a normal eventers position, not back and if the horse trips the rider will whip out but leaning back just in case the horse trips is putting the rider in a more exteme situation.
You could be just walking along and the horse trips and goes down and it has nothing to do with your riding position.
Shit happens:lol::lol:[/QUOTE]
I really really don’t know why I’m stepping in this again but I guess I am.
I don’t THINK that anyone has said that going down you should just lean back. Seems that everyone is saying stay balanced. (besides you)
As to my friend I was hoping that you would get my point which was IF she had been leaning forward as you suggest that would have been all she wrote. They would have been down, most likely with the horse rolling over the rider. She started down in a balanced position and because she did was able to make the changes quickly that saved them both.
Shadow, you really need to keep in mind that beginner riders read these posts and some will take every word for Gospel. :slight_smile: You keep telling us you are older but guess what!? I’m older than you and been riding for sixty two years. Done lots of stuff and lots of hills (still do) and not one time have I ever “wiped out” on a hill. If I were flipping horses backwards on down hills I’d reallly question my riding or my horse. That is weird. Having said all that I have to say even at my advanced age :lol: I still am learning new things about horses, riding. You are truely missing out on one of life’s pleasures because you “know everything.”

When you are cantering across country you are in a forward seat, leaning forward. When you start down a steep hill if you foze in that position you would be leaning forward over the horse. The combination of steep slope and you forward seat would put you in a forward postion.

I think it’s a semantics thing–to most of us, “leaning forward” is a BAD thing.

Absolutely when cantering cross country you are in a forward seat, but rather than say you are leaning forward the more clear term is that you have closed your hip angle. While your torso might go in front of the vertical, your rear end compensates and goes out behind you.

It’s like the difference between a ski jumper and a downhill skier. Both of them have forward angled torsos, the difference is what the rest of their body is doing.

http://www.skijumpingcentral.com/images/karla98.jpg

vs

http://www.samwyer.com/scan0001.jpg

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3953933]
I have knowingly gone over banks knowing I was not going to make it but went anyway,
QUOTE]

Shadow, this not only is senseless but horse abuse. :mad: Not much to be admired there.

How I ride hills…don’t lean too far forward or too far back, but look at the trees you are riding around and try to keep your spine parallel with the tree trunks. I soften my middle so I’m not getting slammed around going downhill, the horse has light contact on the reins if I think that horse needs it, or none if he’s better free in the face.

I do not think it is reasonable to - as in the case described above-set a horse up to fall out from under me. The potential disastrous results to his SI joint alone inhibits me from going that route. In 30 years of riding I’ve had one horse fall out from under me one time-we were loping a reasonable circle on short, wet grass. So certainly things happen, but I avoid dumb things when I can. A friend of mine lost a great gelding when he stepped on a downed branch on a mountain trail, it rolled under his hoof, and he drove the sharp end of it deep into his abdomen/flank. So, yes, things happen in a blink. Willingly, happily, doing dumb stuff isn’t on my list of to dos. I ride goat trails and tough trails and scary trails-we got lost once with friends in MT not far NW of Yellowstone - stepped onto a game trail, missed the seldom used forest service trail and by God we went down things I didn’t know you could on a horse- but that was HAD to, not WANT to…even there it was with a dose of sense and an eye out for taking care of my horse. And me, too. I don’t want to have to shoot a horse due to my own negligence, bravado, whatever one would call it.

So steep hills? If I can, I find a place to negotiate it straight down, if footing permits and it’s not too long. keep my body in line with the trees, as described previously.

YMMV.

[QUOTE=katarine;3954272]

So steep hills? If I can, I find a place to negotiate it straight down, if footing permits and it’s not too long. keep my body in line with the trees, as described previously.

YMMV.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Katarine. And that is meant nicely. If you keep your body at the same angle as the trees you are leaning back. Trees always try to grow straight up. If they start on a steep slope they match the angle of the slope. So if the horse is angleing down at say 30 degrees you are angling back at 30 degrees to match the trees and they adds up to 60 degrees totaly you are leaning back???
Again this doesn’t add up.?
While riding you are at say 0 or straight up or slightly forward leaning back 60 degrees really puts you over the hind end??

[QUOTE=pj;3954239]

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3953933]I have knowingly gone over banks knowing I was not going to make it but went anyway,
QUOTE]

Shadow, this not only is senseless but horse abuse. :mad: Not much to be admired there.[/QUOTE]

Did that in 1986, 23 years ago but you will really hate me for intentially getting Shadow stuck in deep snow 2 years ago to teach him not to struggle when trapped.

If you understood angles you wouldn’t be confused???

how does crow taste, exactly?

Geez, this thread! Shadow, If you have done it all, why don’t you have a grasp of basic concepts, like, say, the forward seat?

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3953858]
When you are cantering across country you are in a forward seat, leaning forward. [/QUOTE]

A forward seat is NOT the same as leaning forward.

[QUOTE=Leather;3954234]
Absolutely when cantering cross country you are in a forward seat, but rather than say you are leaning forward the more clear term is that you have closed your hip angle. While your torso might go in front of the vertical, your rear end compensates and goes out behind you.

][/QUOTE]

So if you are cantering across country and you freeze your rider position and have the horse drop over a steep enbankment would you suddenly unfreeze and lean back? or maintain the rider postion and thus seem to be leaning forward since the horse has dropped out from under you???

Maybe it is all in the wording?

[QUOTE=katarine;3954425]
If you understood angles you wouldn’t be confused???
how does crow taste, exactly?[/QUOTE]

I’m not eating crow. I still maintain you lean forward while going down steep hills. You do NOT lean back past the vertical related to the horses back while going down steep grades and the steeper it gets the more forward you position.

[QUOTE=Calico;3954427]
Geez, this thread! Shadow, If you have done it all, why don’t you have a grasp of basic concepts, like, say, the forward seat?

A forward seat is NOT the same as leaning forward.[/QUOTE]

I never took a dessage lesson in my life. I rode JUMPERS in the 80’s because I was bolt, had a great jumper and no politics could come into play. I had a horse that could jump anything I put her at and I used that skill with no question if my position, my attire, my turnout matter. It was purely wheather we made the coarse and time. Wiped out there too. Cut a corner hard in a speed event and my mare caught her foot on the corner of a chicken cage that I was jumping on a 45 degree angle and we did a tumble.
Sorry if I don’t use the correct terms. As for doing it all I started this post on how to do steep slippery slopes and you guys try to turn it into a roast???
Not very nice but it reflects the nature of the posters.

I don’t lean forward???
it’s rediculous to insist that I do???
You aren’t getting roasted but you love the attention and like it when you get to tell others they are inexperienced flatlanded, gun toting newbies that lack the courage to do as you do???
the common denominator in your messes on this board, is you???

(it’s hard to type like you do, Shadow).

The horse angles down the hill.
I open my hip angle and stay the same as I was.

riding on flat land
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Riding down steep stuff. round by back to soften the drops

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[QUOTE=Shadow14;3954448]
Sorry if I don’t use the correct terms. As for doing it all I started this post on how to do steep slippery slopes and you guys try to turn it into a roast???
Not very nice but it reflects the nature of the posters.[/QUOTE]
Aww but, Shadow, YOU gather the wood and light the fire.
To be honest with you I believe about a fourth of what you say. I think you get a charge out of being “roasted” and do everything that you can to heat up the fire. :slight_smile:
Have to hand it to you though…you DO liven up the board. :yes:

Guys I am out of this post. It has nothing to do with riding a steep slippery slope any longer. It is just about roasting me.

[QUOTE=pj;3954493]
Have to hand it to you though…you DO liven up the board. :yes:[/QUOTE]

Had to respond to this pj.
I am not bothered by being roasted by the board. I am not afraid to stand alone in front of a crowd and say what I beleive. I don’t need alot of people backing me. I am also not afraid to try something and then evaluate how it work. I build race cars as a side hobby and alot of inventions used by most cars in my class were invented by me being different and trying.
So I will try every way I can think of to get my point across to my horse or dogs and in the end I end up with exceptional animals.
I don’t want to be one of the crowd but stand out alone if need be but at least I try
Bye

[QUOTE=Shadow14;3954169]
sorry if I wasn’t afraid enough but I wasn’t. I knew the snow was deep and I was going to be swept off but it was all in fun.
In the past 51 years I have never destroyed a horse, broke his leg and other then a minor cut have not harmed one.
Trust me or not, it really doesn’t matter. I don’t have to carry a gun either.[/QUOTE]

Shadow, it has nothing to do with fear what so ever.

It has to do with making an intelliegent informed decision. The way you worded it… was we went over banks where we knew we weren’t going to make it- clearly indicates bad decision makign

Saying you slide down a hill into a snow drift is different animal and I’m not validating or denying what you do. I could care less…

The point as someone else pointed out, was that people take it as gossple, naive as they may be, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Fear has nothing to do with it… I am rarely ‘afraid’ on my horse. its ‘common sense’ and not KNOWINGLY endangering your horse. I never knowingly put him in harms way, jumping over stuff or through stuff for the hell of it, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t come prepared for an accident because they happen and with all your careening around I am suprised you do not come more prepared.

Broken leg? Your’s or the horse’s?

It is not a matter of if, but when… you can only do that so much before someone gets hurt, you’ve been very fortunate but I’m suprised with such nonchalance for how you ride you aren’t more prepared for accidents. prior planning prevents piss poor performance, but I guess if you don’t put a lot of thought into where you are asking your horse to go then you wouldn’t put a lot of thought into what you were going to do when you both go hurt.

That is an observation… nothing personal by the way. Most of us don’t understand why anything we can do- you can do it better- which MEAN it or not (cause I have not idea of your intentions) thats how it comes across… So if you mean otherwise here is your chance… to explain exactly how you want it to come across.

At this point it seems like semantics as far as forward/leaning. most of us stay balanced it appears.

If it is a slide where the horse isthrowing up their head for balance, propping their front legs and sitting down(trying to anyway- the hill is there) using their hindquarters as a brake the US cavalry taught their soloers to balance over the front legs cross the reins in front of the saddle and use that as a bracing strap and slide the horse down the hill.
I have the tapes on VHS but don’t know how to post it on youtube for you to see.
It works but I get yelled at whenever I A) Go down a cliff that steep. B) Use that method rather than lean back in the saddle.