On the ability to be athletic- mine are great- they can go on a long hike, long runs- we have previously conditioned them for 6+ mile runs in the winter when it is off season for other sports year round. One of mine is 45 lbs, the other is 90lbs. Sizing is all dependent on the parents. You can look on FB and find local doodle groups- most look towards others for breeder referrals and even normally have local dog park doodle meetups. These are a great way to get to meet some of the dogs from local breeders and see what traits they have.
I also know really well bred purebreds who have horrible hip issues (labs, goldens,poodles,etc.) A big + of a good doodle breeder is that you are looking to REMOVE the likelihood of those issues that you get with the eventual in breeding and add some diversity to the soundness of their structural build.
And you are right- a good breeder would of taken the 1st back, but the husband thought it was a great gift to get his wife- they had multiple kids under the age of 5 and he traveled for work 80% of the time- she had a breakdown and didn’t even go back to the breeder- so we rehomed him. (and while I am all for good breeders- I will adopt/re-home a dog before I ever go to a breeder)
The other looks more like Einstein- he has crazy hair- he and a two siblings ended up in a kill shelter a few states away and a local rescue group got them. No one knows how they ended up in the kill shelter- but the thought is, it was a BAD breeder who didn’t get the teddy bear look and dumped them 
I am not for backyard breeders(same way with horses). But I am for thoughtful, educated breeders who do their due diligence, homework and CARE for the product they put out.
You have bad breeders though with all dogs- not just designer crosses- if you search online you will find purebred litters for sale on CL, local boards, signs on cross streets, etc. It is IMHO too close minded to say designer breeds are bad- at some point all breeds were created through someone wanting traits of one and traits of another- these are just the newest.
[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;8539833]
I’m the original poster and specifically brought up structure. My friend and her husband are a young, active couple. They want a dog capable of running, hiking, swimming, etc. long-term. Just like horses, there are always conformational messes that stay sound long-term but they are the exception. A sound dog is more likely to keep up with their active lifestyle while having a lower likelihood of sustaining a soft tissue injury or being a victim of a structural issue like HD.
My personal dog is not perfect but he is a former conformation dog and is nicely built. He keeps up with dogs many times his size and covers ground really efficiently. I am confident that his structure will contribute to his long-term soundness and health.
I want my friend to have a similar experience and I don’t think someone who breeds for color, coat, or cuteness is going to be a good fit.
Thank you for all of the helpful comments over the past 5 pages. Things have been quiet with my friend so I am hopeful that she is processing and doing some reading about the other breeds suggested.[/QUOTE]
Why doesn’t she just get a Lab?
[QUOTE=sophie;8539551]
I see a lot of “doodles” around here as well. All kinds, all sizes. Some of them are nice enough dogs, others, not so much. I don’t know why they are so popular and why people shun the Std poodle, which is a great dog, smart, easy to train, athletic, non-shedding…why ruin a good thing by cross-breeding it?! Not to mention, some of those doodle pups are MORE expensive than Std poodle pups.[/QUOTE]
Agreed! They are incredibly nice versatile dogs.
I worked for a professional Standard breeder and handler many moons ago.
She had some awesome dogs.
Are standard schnauzers out? She needs a standard schnau puppy so you can post pictures of it and I can stalk her.
Just curious, if you aren’t afraid to derail the original topic TOO much, but what breeds have you suggested? I’m a sucker for a bearded dog!
[QUOTE=bits619;8540007]
Are standard schnauzers out? She needs a standard schnau puppy so you can post pictures of it and I can stalk her.
Just curious, if you aren’t afraid to derail the original topic TOO much, but what breeds have you suggested? I’m a sucker for a bearded dog![/QUOTE]
they are certainly massive (My former boss got one…MAN!!!)
I hate to say it but it’s probably easier to get a well bred cross breed from a good breeder then a well bred purebred from a good breeder. Meaning actually get one, not find one.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8540012]
I hate to say it but it’s probably easier to get a well bred cross breed from a good breeder then a well bred purebred from a good breeder. Meaning actually get one, not find one.[/QUOTE]
LOL, but no.
I mean, knowing you, you probably refer to ‘getting it’ as in right now, not tomorrow…
But no, you are not more likely to get a good mutt than a good purebred.
You won’t know if your cattle terrorist isn’t riddled with genetic faults for years.
By then the breeder done spend your money.
A breeder of recognized breeds might not have a litter right THEN, when you want it, but it does not mean you won’t get one.
Lol @cattle terrorist. I’ve not heard that one before.
[QUOTE=Alagirl;8540008]
they are certainly massive (My former boss got one…MAN!!!)[/QUOTE]
Not Giant, standard Schnauzers.
[QUOTE=oceanmountain;8539891]
I also know really well bred purebreds who have horrible hip issues (labs, goldens,poodles,etc.) A big + of a good doodle breeder is that you are looking to REMOVE the likelihood of those issues that you get with the eventual in breeding and add some diversity to the soundness of their structural build. [/QUOTE]
This is just BS that cross-breeders tell people. It’s just as likely that a doodle breeder will INCREASE the likelihood of structural or congenital problems if they aren’t using a diverse breeding pool, not breeding to a specific standard, and if they don’t do testing for congenital defects…which are more effective as predictors when they have been conducted for many generations, not just of the breeding pair.
Breeders that own all their breeding studs and bitches themselves are likely to have a high inbreeding coefficient; potentially higher than other breeders would consider healthy - which is why good breeders line breed AND outcross to different lines to reduce the potential for congenital defects.
Some doodle breeders might do this. Many of them simply breed random poodles to goldens or labs and breed back to their own puppies…without any thought to health or defects, and in particular without any objective standard of perfection by which to select future breeding stock. If that’s not the goal of a breeding program, no “hybrid vigor” BS is going to come out of it.
[QUOTE=RPM;8539952]
Why doesn’t she just get a Lab?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t put lab at the top of my list as a running partner. Standard Poodle still sounds like one of the best matches; particularly if they like that coat. Personally I’d go with a dog with a slick coat unless they like grooming - a German Shorthair would meet this list very well…or German Wirehair, PWD, or Curly Coated Retriever as well…
[QUOTE=Sswor;8540012]
I hate to say it but it’s probably easier to get a well bred cross breed from a good breeder then a well bred purebred from a good breeder. Meaning actually get one, not find one.[/QUOTE]
According to a previous post, your breeder of choice is Amish. They are putting out the mixed dogs that you like. You choose to support a puppy mill. That is your choice, but for a lot of people puppy mills are not an option they would support. Lots of mill dogs are bred and sold, but hopefully to the uneducated about the puppy mill business. And that is changing with the info about those practices being made public. It used to be people went to the puppies r us store and listen to the spiel, believe the expert (sarcasm here) salesperson and hand over $$$$. Now with the Internet and social media info is easy to find and I hope the mills are put out of business. No matter how you look at it, the designer dog craze is not putting out quality pets. They are backyard bred or from mills and not bred to breed standards, for health or temperament. Out of a litter of doodles you will get some More Poodle, and the others more like the Lad, Golden, etc. they do not breed true.
I have no dog in this fight, but…
Are the people who are crossbreeding to get these types of dogs using good dogs to produce them? Because the AKC keeps letting horrible breeders breed purebred dogs with hip dysplasia. And we all know that the way to get rid of hip dysplasia forever is to test/xray and not breed dogs who suffer from this. But the AKC just lets the purebred breeders keep on keeping on producing puppies with painful hips.
And are the breeders of the crossbreds trying to breed for performance and conformation as the warmblood horse breeders in europe do with their horses? Or are the doodlewhaever breeders just wanting to get an unusual looking dog?
As for getting purebreds, it is hard to get one from one of the premier breeders. If you go to a show near you, you can meet the breeders of the breed of dog you want, and that is the best way to get one. The people who show have a reputation to uphold, and that means they don’t want negative feedback. The backyard breeders and the puppy mill breeders are just wanting to sell more dog, no matter what the defects the dogs have.
I’ve gotten all my crossbreds either at the pound or picked them up off of the road when they got run over. I’ve bought all my purebred dogs from breeders who show.
[QUOTE=scierra;8540150]
According to a previous post, your breeder of choice is Amish. They are putting out the mixed dogs that you like. You choose to support a puppy mill. That is your choice, but for a lot of people puppy mills are not an option they would support. Lots of mill dogs are bred and sold, but hopefully to the uneducated about the puppy mill business. And that is changing with the info about those practices being made public. It used to be people went to the puppies r us store and listen to the spiel, believe the expert (sarcasm here) salesperson and hand over $$$$. Now with the Internet and social media info is easy to find and I hope the mills are put out of business. No matter how you look at it, the designer dog craze is not putting out quality pets. They are backyard bred or from mills and not bred to breed standards, for health or temperament. Out of a litter of doodles you will get some More Poodle, and the others more like the Lad, Golden, etc. they do not breed true.[/QUOTE]
This post is right.
[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;8540151]
Are the people who are crossbreeding to get these types of dogs using good dogs to produce them? Because the AKC keeps letting horrible breeders breed purebred dogs with hip dysplasia. And we all know that the way to get rid of hip dysplasia forever is to test/xray and not breed dogs who suffer from this. But the AKC just lets the purebred breeders keep on keeping on producing puppies with painful hips.[/QUOTE]
How does the “AKC allow” this? They are a registry. Period. It’s not their job to police the health records of a million dogs a year. Even if we wanted it to be that way; it simply wouldn’t be possible (not without having to pay a LOT more in AKC fees, which would result in people just not registering dogs at all.)
Breeders have to be responsible - and BUYERS have to insist on responsibly bred puppies. That’s the part that is so often missing.
(Also, while I fully support OFA xrays/PennHIP it’s not foolproof, and by itself won’t end dysplasia forever…it’s more complex than that. But it’s something that can be done to improve the chances of good hips, and so it should be done.)
“Bad” breeders breed the same whether it is cross bred or purebred, cheaply bought dogs they got from a puppy mill or paid as little as possible for to other dogs of same. They likely kill the sickly and runts and put the rest up for sale these days on Craigslist posing as small family bred since most pet stores no longer sell puppies.
This seems to be the case for most of the toy/small breed designer mixes the whole thing is pathetic. A few might care about the dogs and breed good dogs to other good dogs but most are puppy mills now raking in more $ with the new fad .
The doodle breeders so far seem better as if they try to breed quality dogs or at least their websites say they do, and they typically reserve in advance for litters rather than selling puppies on CL . Hopefully that will stop there but of course profit motive draws more into breeding.
True mutts have crossbred vigor because the random nature of the breeding guarantees different genetics and many in fact resemble “the perfect dog” ( a TV documentary world over show dogs that showed when left to natural selection dogs breed and produce a medium size with shorter coats and long muzzles, and a leaner body type…dogs with real teeth and muzzles and short coats bred to thrive and survive not satisfy some silly whim of people for a pushed in face, certain coat type or to act like eternal puppies )
[QUOTE=scierra;8540150]
According to a previous post, your breeder of choice is Amish. They are putting out the mixed dogs that you like. You choose to support a puppy mill. That is your choice, but for a lot of people puppy mills are not an option they would support. Lots of mill dogs are bred and sold, but hopefully to the uneducated about the puppy mill business. And that is changing with the info about those practices being made public. It used to be people went to the puppies r us store and listen to the spiel, believe the expert (sarcasm here) salesperson and hand over $$$$. Now with the Internet and social media info is easy to find and I hope the mills are put out of business. No matter how you look at it, the designer dog craze is not putting out quality pets. They are backyard bred or from mills and not bred to breed standards, for health or temperament. Out of a litter of doodles you will get some More Poodle, and the others more like the Lad, Golden, etc. they do not breed true.[/QUOTE]
Sure but Millers don’t breed JRT/ACDs, farmers do. Millers breed purebreds or pommie-poo type puff balls, puggles, tea cup toys; puppies that there is a big market for in the cities. There really isn’t a suburban pet market for ratters–high energy, high drive, not apartment or family dogs. A miller is going to breed dogs that there is a big market for and the best return on their $, not mixed working dogs mutts they would struggle to get rid of long past their “prime”. The Amish breed this type of Jack cross for use on their farms.
For the skeptical, a quick search will show you that purebred Jacks or Heelers are difficult to find at pet stores and the mix of the two is next to non-existent.
Now I sincerely doubt that Amish farm dogs get health tested so you got me there, but you’re in the same boat with a shelter dog.
I really don’t find giving a few bucks to random Amish guy for a puppy. I know the Amish get a bad rap on coth but I do my best not to subscribe to internet stereotypes.
[QUOTE=Sswor;8540202]
Sure but Millers don’t breed JRT/ACDs, farmers do. Millers breed purebreds or pommie-poo type puff balls, puggles, tea cup toys; puppies that there is a big market for in the cities.
I really don’t find giving a few bucks to random Amish guy for a puppy. I know the Amish get a bad rap on coth but I do my best not to subscribe to internet stereotypes.[/QUOTE]
Both are examples of bad breeders. Both are selling puppies for the purpose of making a profit, and their target market is ignorant owners with a desire for instant gratification.
It doesn’t matter if they call themselves a “miller” or a “backyard breeder” or a “farmer”. They aren’t a good breeder.
Farm dogs are bred to work a farm. Extra puppies are sold for a few bucks to other farmers or odd balls like me. I’m ok with that.
